I've done all of the checklist except for landing on rears. I jump a Pilot 150 and a few inches of input and she stalls with the associated unpleasant consequences. I havent asked anyone on the dz, but do all canopies have such a narrow margin for using the rears to flare?
That's interesting - I have a Pilot 132 and I haven't had that problem at all. Haven't landed it on rears (landed my old Hornet 150 on rears and will do so eventually with this one too when the conditions are right), but have done a lot of rear riser flares up high. I've put it just on the verge of stalling to see where that point was, but it was beyond the point where my comfortable rear riser flare ends. That said, I'm not very large and my arms aren't very long, so it's possible that the rear riser flare that feels normal to me is different from what someone with longer risers/longer arms/higher wingloading would experience?
Not flaming, I just don't understand why "landing on rears" is on the checklist in the first place? Sure, I need to know what my canopy does when I give riser input - but why actually land it on rears if both toggles are just fine? What is the added value of intentionally making your landing more dangerous, especially if you are a newb like me?
Canopy control is heaps of fun, but I won't land my main on rears unless I really have to; say a broken steering line below 1K. Otherwise it's bye-bye main and hello reserve.
Canopy control is heaps of fun, but I won't land my main on rears unless I really have to; say a broken steering line below 1K. Otherwise it's bye-bye main and hello reserve.
and what if your reserve ALSO has a broken line/unattached toggle ??
train it so you have something more in your canopy control toolbox. You might never have to use it, but you will have a better clue on how to in case you need it.
Yes, of course - that's another example of when I must.
I'll certainly be practicing stuff up high, in fact, I've spent the entire winter on high hop and pops doing canopy control, but what I'm asking is why I'd need to actually land on rears rather than just practicing up high, with someone else (like a canopy coach) as my reference.
Given the sensitivity of the canopy to rear input compared to toggles landing it that way sounds outright dangerous and should certainly not be attempted by someone who is, say, thinking about downsizing from a 288 to a 240 - even student canopies can stall using rears, yes?
Not flaming, I just don't understand why "landing on rears" is on the checklist in the first place? Sure, I need to know what my canopy does when I give riser input - but why actually land it on rears if both toggles are just fine? What is the added value of intentionally making your landing more dangerous, especially if you are a newb like me?
Canopy control is heaps of fun, but I won't land my main on rears unless I really have to; say a broken steering line below 1K. Otherwise it's bye-bye main and hello reserve.
Can't comment on why it's on the checklist, but I know why I wanted to do it. When I had ~60 jumps, I lost a brake line (finger trap wasn't sewn and it fell off at the cascades). I was scared by the idea of trying to land on rears, so I cut it away. I wanted to have the experience of landing with rears in "ideal" conditions so that if I were ever in a situation like that again, I'd feel comfortable landing it. I still feel good about the decision to chop that one given the circumstances and my limited experience at the time, but if the same thing happened tomorrow I'd keep it. (I've also since learned to inspect my canopy to minimize the chance of that happening again).
I just did a jump the other day on a Sabre 2 150 that I've had for a while just don't jump much - was a "post-sunset" jump with a larger group - opened near people and made sure I was clear of canopy traffic before I did my control check - my left toggle unstowed but only went down 75% of the way - let it back up and it would only go down 10% now (kinda like a chinese finger trap). Was all knotted up. Was 1800 or so feet and decided I would try to clear it since I felt safer landing on rears than cutting away over a bunch of trees. Tension was too great to unknot it so I did some quick rear practice flares then entered my pattern. I landed ok.. just swiftly. I am in the process of going from a pilot 124 to a xf2 129 and was definitely questioning my decisions and thoroughly reviewed the checklist. You don't need to "want" to do it but are you comfortable with doing it if you must? Also, the response on rears is MUCH greater noticed when you are landing - it is a completely different feeling than with toggles and from what I noticed from a previous jump - its fine in the air but when ur instincts and adrenaline get going and its ur first time landing on rears - ur probably going to flare too much and end up stalling it and eating it. I'm glad I did it when I wanted to and knew better when I had to. Just my 2 cents (that the government values at $.033 and so should you! )
When I landed my 150 on rears, I started the flare a little too high and finished the flare with my feet about 2-3 feet off the ground. Didn't stall the canopy, just came straight down the last little bit. Landing was therefore a little harder than normal, but definitely not a big deal. I wouldn't choose to land on rears on a regular basis, but I wouldn't hesitate to do so if needed.
You might want to do a hop & pop and look at the tail of your canopy to see what the Line Trim is doing.
If you unstow your breaks and the Tail is being pulled down by your control lines or there is no slack in your control lines, then your control lines are too short.
When you go to rears with control lines that are too short your canopy can react erratically. Get with your Rigger and validate your Line Trim settings and control line settings.
You should not have issues with your canopy on rears with such little input. But Also the control range on rear risers is allot less than with toggles. So make sure you are not using the same amount of input with both methods.
>Given the sensitivity of the canopy to rear input compared to toggles >landing it that way sounds outright dangerous and should certainly not be >attempted by someone who is, say, thinking about downsizing from a 288 >to a 240 - even student canopies can stall using rears, yes?
Yes! And stalling a 288 at 3 feet is almost a non-event - but stalling a 150 at 3 feet can be painful. That's why it's a good idea to start learning such things on larger canopies (IMO.)
i love the line "i finished my flare with my feet"
thats excellent..
Ahh, gotta love quotes taken out of context Yup, I did a rear riser flare with my feet and still managed an uneventful stand-up landing?!?
it wasnt taken out of context..i know you didnt actually use your feet to spread the rears...i totally understand what you meant..which makes it even funnier to me..
Im looking at downsizing and have herd reference to a couple of canopy control checklists... 
Any help would be appreciated. 
) 
