Re: [crutch] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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You've missed the point, the unstable rsl has killed people, and will kill again. Its just numbers. Mal main, unstable reserve, entanglement.
The second point, I could care less about the manufacture, but I do care about the people, person. Is this ok or do you consider these people who've passed on from this acceptable losses? Are you remotely gonna feel bad when the next 22 year old nerd comes out for the jump of their dreams and gets a double mal sandwich. I think protecting and defending this is a diservice to the sport, not helping it. The sport has turned a bit politically correct on this and I'm tired of the silence. Its time to address fixing the problem of the unstable RSL deployment, especially on tandems and students. The situation I described is not ok. Skydiving is about people, and that means caring about this situation, this person.
Re: [likearock] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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I'll bet the skyhook fatalities is the lowest number. Sorry you think that it was acceptable for the rsl fatalities to die. They must be acceptable losses to you.
(This post was edited by mattaman on Aug 7, 2008, 8:52 PM)
Re: [mattaman] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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You've missed the point, the unstable rsl has killed people, and will kill again. Its just numbers. Mal main, unstable reserve, entanglement.
You have been beating this skyhook drum on many threads for several days....... I also think that the Skyhook is a great device that removes many possibilities of accidents. (and not because I work for them)....But you keep throwing out that RSL's "kill" people. Take the last 15 years in the sport. How many people had an accident where the RSL may have contributed to the accident.....then figure out how many people have cutaway and hit the ground without a parachute above them. Numbers do not lie. What is the ratio? 4-1....5-1.....or 10-1? Do you know?
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The second point, I could care less about the manufacture, but I do care about the people, person. Is this ok or do you consider these people who've passed on from this acceptable losses?
Yep, screw those manufactures that spend thousands of dollars inventing these safety devices. They *OWE* it to the jumping comumunity because they are a manufacture...they are selfish cause they won't give away their inventions for free. What horrible people they are. in fact, because of people like you they start to realize that maybe they shouldn't invest time and money to come up with inventions that may save lives. Trust me, I agree that 1 death in the sport is tooo many, but your agruement is the exact reason that people give up on making it safer.
Re: [divnswoop] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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No ones hearing, or caring to hear the point. And yes, I'm gonna say it whether people like what I say or not. We've accepted that the people who die from unstable rsl fatalities are acceptable losses. 3 tandems and a host of other people. Now, to speak out against the rsl brings out a ton of backlash in this comminity, problem is, it covers up that these fatalities didn't have to happen, and we need another solution to the unstable rsl problem. I'm not accepting these fatalies as acceptable losses for a device that is outdated. Pointing out the dangers of an rsl in this sport is like kicking a hornets nest, and its time to address this problem. Cause there is no argument that it was acceptable for those people to die, possibly out of no fault of their own other than they trusted someone to help them make a skydive. Not the sport I signed up for, and I'll fight you on this til they kick me off this thread. We need an answer to this. Its time to fix this problem, before the next fatality, and the next one, then the next one..... As a community we're smart enough to solve it, rather than hide it.
Re: [mattaman] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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Wow.....So no one should ever make another skydive unless they have a skyhook. I like it. It makes my job all that more secure. I will support you when you go in front of PIA and the FAA. What do you need me to do?
BTW, I am still curious about what you think about the ratio of:
Cutaways with no pull fatalities to:
Unstable cutaways with entanglements possible caused by RSL's are.
Re: [mattaman] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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I'll bet the skyhook fatalities is the lowest number. Sorry you think that it was acceptable for the rsl fatalities to die. They must be acceptable losses to you.
please define "acceptable loss"
to me each loss is too much, BUT if the losses were IN ACCEPTABLE, well ... I'd take up bowling... until someone died on teh bowling alley.
Re: [mattaman] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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I totally understand your point but I wouldn't go so far as to say that using an RSL is a bad idea. They have done exactly what they were designed to do and served the sport very well in the past. Yes RSL's do have their flaws and every body here already knows this, hence the new age of Skyhook RSLs. I believe the change you seek is already on it's way.
Re: [divnswoop] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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Take the last 15 years in the sport. How many people had an accident where the RSL may have contributed to the accident.....then figure out how many people have cutaway and hit the ground without a parachute above them. Numbers do not lie. What is the ratio? 4-1....5-1.....or 10-1? Do you know?
Answers here anyone? This is a critical point in the argument against RSLs. To sum it up (please correct me if I'm wrong *NOOB*), there'd be more people dead if we all took off our RSLs. A solution is available but not generally available. If I were to buy a new rig, I'd have one with a Skyhook but I don't have that luxury.
Re: [danielcroft] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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If I were to buy a new rig, I'd have one with a Skyhook but I don't have that luxury.
You might do so based on your *current* knowledge. Head over to the photo forum, you'll find people there as adamant about NOT using a Skyhook or RSL as you'll find here demanding jumpers use one. Once a Skyhook breaks a camera flyer's neck, we'll hear a different song. The bottom line is, due diligence and some time will help you understand what you really do want, need, and should have on your back. The Skyhook is the newest aid in a long list of improvements found in this sport, IMO, but it surely isn't the be-all/end-all that some have suggested. RSL's of any kind are great life-savers, and absent any information proving otherwise, I'd suggest that on the whole, having an RSL of any sort is better than nothing. Except for me. I'll choose "nothing."
Re: [mattaman] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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I'll bet the skyhook fatalities is the lowest number. Sorry you think that it was acceptable for the rsl fatalities to die. They must be acceptable losses to you.
You cheapen your argument by personally attacking people who simply happen to differ with you. If you're trying to persuade an audience, behaving shamefully is hardly the way to go about it.
Re: [divnswoop] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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Cutaways with no pull fatalities to:
Unstable cutaways with entanglements possible caused by RSL's are.
What is the ratio?
The problem is that the no reserve pulls can be fixed by training and proper reaction to the situation.
The RSL-reserve entanglement fatalities cannot be fixed, you are simply screwed, killed by your 'safety' device. Even if you would have taken the correct action in time, the RSL didn't give you the chance, you are dead.
The RSL is like an airbag that deploys if you jam on the brakes hard. Doesn't matter if you will stop in time or not, the airbag goes off. That would suck to have that in a car. The ratio of airbags killing people vs. saving people in real accidents would be a positive one, but it would still be a bad system to have.
Re: [Hooknswoop] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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The problem is that the no reserve pulls can be fixed by training and proper reaction to the situation.
The RSL-reserve entanglement fatalities cannot be fixed, you are simply screwed, killed by your 'safety' device. Even if you would have taken the correct action in time, the RSL didn't give you the chance, you are dead.
Based on your statements, I'd then argue that if the "no reserve pulls" can be fixed by training, etc., then the "RSL-reserve entanglement" problem can be fixed by training too. Train the skydivers to disconnect the RSL before cutting away if they are unstable at the time.
The RSL/Skyhook/neither argument is the same as the Cypres/Vigil/neither argument. Everyone has their opinion (and a few will argue their position until they're blue in the face). Each of us needs to evaluate these equipment issues, and choose what is best for his/her self.
Re: [mattaman] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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UHHH in case you didn't know the Skyhook is an RSL.....
Of course the skyhookRSL fatality is going to be a lower number than the regular RSL. How long has the Skyhook been in production. How many manufacturers offer this?? Second, how would you ever prove that the RSL killed anybody. What if a student cuts away w/no RSL and immediately deploys the reserve unstable (just like we're taught)? Isn't there still a chance they would get wrapped up in the bridle, pilot chute, etc.etc.??
Been in the sport a year and a half and not saying I know anything but I do know that I didn't even hear about a SkyhookRSL until well after I had bought my own gear.....
Re: [mattaman] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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I'll bet the skyhook fatalities is the lowest number.
How many jumps have been made with RSLs versus how many with skyhooks? By this logic, wingsuits are inherently safer than RW suits because they haven't killed as many people.
Re: [dragon2] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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Ehm, try a search?
Or you might say "please use the search feature to educate yourself on this issue. Then your comments and questions will better contribute to the discussion and will be very welcome....and always watch the horizon".
Re: [mattaman] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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I'll bet the skyhook fatalities is the lowest number. Sorry you think that it was acceptable for the rsl fatalities to die. They must be acceptable losses to you.
Wow, how did you guess? And here I was trying to hide that shameful fact. By the way, I also believe that people who die when their AAD misfires also deserved it.
(This post was edited by likearock on Aug 8, 2008, 6:26 PM)
Re: [DSE] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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You might do so based on your *current* knowledge. Head over to the photo forum, you'll find people there as adamant about NOT using a Skyhook or RSL as you'll find here demanding jumpers use one. Once a Skyhook breaks a camera flyer's neck, we'll hear a different song. The bottom line is, due diligence and some time will help you understand what you really do want, need, and should have on your back. The Skyhook is the newest aid in a long list of improvements found in this sport, IMO, but it surely isn't the be-all/end-all that some have suggested. RSL's of any kind are great life-savers, and absent any information proving otherwise, I'd suggest that on the whole, having an RSL of any sort is better than nothing. Except for me. I'll choose "nothing."
Thanks for the advice.
I've had one cutaway and managed single hand each side EPs even though I'd never trained or practiced them. Pulled in the right sequence so I call it a success. Well, except for the fact that I caused the mal...
I guess the way I look at it is that, I'm not going to fly a camera any time soon but I may well be unstable going to my reserve. I wonder if the skyhook would be a better system *for me*. I don't see it as the panacea for all RSL woes but it seems to solve a problem that I may well have.
It's not a real concern for me right now though because I'm not buying a new rig so I have time.
Re: [airtwardo] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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Why is that ?
Oops, sorry, my writing is crap. What I meant is that I'd trained and practiced two hand each side EPs but went one hand each side when it happened which I thought was odd.
Re: [danielcroft] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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>>which I thought was odd<<
It's a good point though - and it says a lot about human nature. When I had my first Stiletto spin-up back in the early 90s it was a very violent one. I tried to kick out the twists at first but all too soon it got away from me. The spinning canopy pushed the twists down into the risers and then they traveled right into the rig itself. And the yoke of the rig was starting to actually strangle me.
I'd done two hands on each handle type cutaways before, and taught it that way for years as an Instructor, but without an AAD or RSL, and feeling I was starting to pass out I wanted a hand on each handle.
I peeled the cutaway handle off its Velcro and removed the ripcord from its pocket. I punched out the cutaway handle but I couldn't make it budge. I let go of the reserve ripcord and brought that hand over but even with both hands and straining as hard as I could I couldn't cutaway and the frightening thought of just dumping the reserve was fast becoming a reality. By then I couldn't move my neck or head at all anymore but my head was being forced downward and I could see past my toes and at the horizon whizzing around. I decided I still had a bit of time and went back to work on the cutaway handle. With the adrenaline of a dead man it finally gave way and I was free.
In great relief I reached over to where I last left my reserve ripcord and of course it wasn't there anymore. I fumbled around for a moment before looking and then I really got scared as I couldn't see it anywhere. I started running my hands up and down my main lift web and then realized it was twisted too and the ripcord and handle was probably somewhere up under my left arm pit. I finally found the handle just grouping blindly for it but when I pulled on it, it wouldn't budge either. I didn't know it at the time but the cable was wrapped around my MLW. I pulled the handle as straight out as I could and grabbed the cable with my other hand. I got it to move an inch or so, but it was the only inch I needed and I finally saddled out under my reserve. I looked and figured I was about 600-feet over a big open field west of the DZ. But I was spent and didn't even have the energy to reach up and pop the brakes. Anyway I was more than willing to just leave well enough alone and creampuff into the soft dirt.
The lessons in that one, for me, were many and onerous . . .
The Stiletto canopies, at that time, were still fairly new and rare on the west coast. And we didn't have a full grasp yet on some of the problems elliptical canopies could cause. And our line twist causes and fixes, at the time, were predicated on more previous docile canopies. In fact, while I was lying out in that field hoping someone was coming for me I suddenly realized what happened to my good friend Bruce Geikie sometime earlier.
Bruce, a very experienced jumper, rode a spinning Stiletto right into the ground and it killed him. He was found laying out there dead with his main out. His lines were very twisted but we'd seen fatalities that looked just like that before so didn't really think it through. At the time we were all scratching our heads and wondering why he didn't cutaway, but now laying out in that field, I thought I had the answer. He couldn't.
The rest of lessons I learned have become more or less common sense by now. Jump with an AAD. Even though I was getting into Cypress firing range when I finally cutaway, I was also getting close to almost blowing it. And I can't say for sure putting the reserve out without cutting away would have killed me, but I can say for sure the other thing would have.
Treat your reserve ripcord like a pistol in a tense situation. Don't remove it from the holster unless you are going to fire it right now. Don't use a reserve ripcord that has way too much cable passed the handle. You want some, of course, but mine had about six inches. Don't look back when deploying an elliptical canopy. We always did that with regular canopies and it was an ingrained old jumper habit. With ellipticals it's best to square up your shoulders and keep them squared prior, during, and after throwing the PC. This can prevent the line twists in the first place. And finally never ever ever ever jump an elliptical canopy without hard inserts in soft cutaway housings or better yet hard housing in the first place. It's funny but those didn’t come along until many years after my incident. It really took that long to figure it out. We also learned you can’t go more than several hundred jumps on a single line set on ellipticals because as the trim goes away the propensity for line twists goes up.
Again this was all new stuff to us at the time but the main point I'm trying to make for new jumpers is be careful about new fangled gear. No manufacturer can put enough test jumps on anything. So let's talk about the skyhook for a moment. I love Bill Booth and I know the Skyhook will go a long way in preventing the garden variety bounce. But don't be so all fired sure, like a lot of you seem to be, that it doesn't have any issues at all.
I think if you jump a rectangular main and a properly sized reserve there's not much that can go wrong with a skyhook. But if you jump a highly loaded elliptical main and a small highly loaded reserve (like many do) you just might be swapping out a main with unrecoverable line twists for a reserve with unrecoverable line twists. Think about it for a moment. Twist up a highly wing loaded small reserve and you can almost physically change its overall shape from rectangular to elliptical.
We once had a two canopy BASE rig that was semi-popular back in the day. It incorporated a system similar to the skyhook (the main essentially becomes the PC for the reserve) and an experienced B.A.S.E. cutaway a spinning line over but his reserve opened with so many twists he couldn't get them out before landing and it killed him. And this was a fairly high cliff jump so it wasn't like he opened either canopy as low as modern B.A.S.E. jumpers do today.
So the skyhook of today may not be the skyhook of tomorrow. And bless him; Bill Booth will keep chasing down the problems as they come along. Look at the evolution of pilot chutes. When we had them spring loaded and inside our main containers we had problems with hesitations and totals. So Bill Booth took out the metal spring and built a pouch that went across your belly to stow it. Hand deploy was a revolution in skydiving. But then some people either twisted the belly band or tightened it down so much they started having pilot chutes in tow or totals. So Bill moved the pouch from the belly band to the top of the leg strap. We stopped having jammed in the pouch PCs but we still occasionally had folks twisting a leg strap and having PCs in tow. So then we finally went to BOCs which became the best answer. But how long did that take? It took fifteen years or so and a lot of skin.
You know how some people buy computer stuff? They always stay two years behind the cutting edge. They eventually get to the same place as everyone else, but for them it's a lot cheaper, and for skydivers, especially for the inexperienced thinking about gear, it might just be a bit safer.
And if you are a young skydiver with a few hundred jumps now, and working on that coach rating, when you start advising those with 50 jumps about new gear, don't ever be afraid, no matter how sold you are on something, to throw in that big "but" at the end. If you don't they'll know you're snowing them, and you'll become a crummy Instructor in the end . . .
Re: [TheBachelor] Fatality - Delphi, IN - 3 - August 2008
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Train the skydivers to disconnect the RSL before cutting away if they are unstable at the time.
Then simply do not connect the RSL since you will be unstable after every cutaway. That eliminates trying to find a little red tab and pull it before cutting away.
That is like saying (back to my airbag analogy) that drivers should turn off the brake-activated airbag if it isn't a real accident before applying the brake. That is an even dumber system than a brake activated airbag.
The numbers that should be looked at is how many cutaways are there a year and how many of those would an RSL have helped? How many would an RSL have been unnecessary, i.e. the jumper would have or did take proper, timely action?
Very few RSL deployments would an RSL have helped the jumper. Far more often, the RSL makes things worse by activating the reserve while the jumper is unstable.
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