This has been a long-standing controversy. People are trained both ways. The USPA SIM shows both options, with no preference. I'm interested in knowing how you were trained, and if your knowledge after your student days has altered your plans as to handling this emergency.
Kevin K.
(This post was edited by kkeenan on Oct 14, 2009, 9:47 AM)
Re: [kkeenan] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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I havent had a cutaway yet so I am not sure how I would respond to a high speed mal but I like to keep things simple and was taught when in doubt punch right punch left ...
Re: [KermieCorleone] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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...when in doubt punch right punch left ...
Not trying to be an internet dick, but that thought and reaction certainly may have been a killer in the Brazil canopy collision fatality (yes I know, avoid the collision).
Know why you do each set of EPs for each situation. Don't just instinctively Cut and reserve, as it may not be the right course.
Re: [kkeenan] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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I was taught reserve, I teach reserve, I DID reserve on my PCIT.
The fun part was flying the reserve with one handle, a PC and two toggles in my right hand with the left hand holding the main container closed...just in case.
Re: [kkeenan] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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"I'll figure it out when the time comes" doesn't seem a very sensible plan for a high speed mal?!?
That being said there's footage somewhere (skydivingmovies.com?) of I think a russian jumper with a pilot chute in tow. He goes onto his back, reels it in then back on to belly and deploys his reserve. Probably not recommended, I think he was an experienced jumper with a fair bit of altitude.
Re: [JohnMitchell] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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cut that shit away, last thing i want is that main randomly coming out and inflating at some point during or after the reserve inflation.
Maybe some worry that the departing main, with its lines and risers, may entangle the inflating reserve.
Exactly. That seems like a worse prospect to me than a 2-out, more often than not. But in any event - from "decide" to "main risers released", a high-stress cutaway of a PCIT on a shifted harness might easily eat up an extra 1,000 feet at terminal before reserve pull. To me, that's an extra 1,000 feet of not ending the skydive. No thanks.
(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Oct 14, 2009, 11:48 AM)
Re: [kkeenan] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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Total = Straight to silver Partial = Cutaway and Reserve
How do we identify a Total? Total implys that nothing worked. Therefore if the PC is extracted from the BOC, then at least that worked and anything that follows is a partial.
This concludes that a PC in tow calls for a cutaway and reserve.
This is what I was trained and aslo what I train to my students. In my opinion it keeps things fairly simple while also conveying the fact that not all things are equal. Yes, collisions and min cutaway altitudes are taught and very important.
As for myself, I have been known to pull at altitudes from which I do not want to be wasting time pulling the only handle that will not save my life during a PC in tow, so it is straight to silver for me.
Re: [azureriders] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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Couldn't all this be avoided via a simple pin check? For the record I think the SIM indicates to look left then right so allow better air flow to the Pilot. If that does not solve the mal then to "cut" and deploy reserve.
Re: [petejones45] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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I disagree. i would always cut the main in this situation.
I disagree - it's a matter of priorities.
A two-out situation is a potentiality in this scenario.
A closed container is a certainty in this scenario.
My opinion and practice is to deal with the actual problem first - pull the reserve. If the main pin releases subsequent to that, I'll deal with it then.
I don't want to waste my precious time dealing with an imaginary problem when I have a very real problem in hand.
.02
Edited to add "pin"
(This post was edited by NovaTTT on Oct 14, 2009, 12:51 PM)
Re: [JohnMitchell] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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For a true total malfunction, nothing out at all, were you trained to pull both handles or just the reserve?
I was taught for PCIT and total go for the reserve and not waste time cutting away.
I was unfortunate enough to have experienced a total when I slightly injured my shoulder in freefall and could not reach my pud.
Broke off a 4 way at 3500' I went to pull at 2500' and could not reach it. Made another attempt at around 2000' while looking at my reserve handle and chest mounted altimeter (reason I like chest mount alts, you can see them when you need them most). Finally gave up after the second try as I was screaming through about 1600' and pulled the reserve.
Had I decided to cutaway before dumping the reserve sure my reserve ride would have been well under 1000' if everything went smoothly with cutting away (figure about 3 seconds at best to do a fast cutaway). Had I decided to cutaway and fumbled around or had issues cutting away (5 seconds) I probably would not have had time to get the reserve out.
Re: [azureriders] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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Total = Straight to silver Partial = Cutaway and Reserve
How do we identify a Total? Total implys that nothing worked. Therefore if the PC is extracted from the BOC, then at least that worked and anything that follows is a partial.
This concludes that a PC in tow calls for a cutaway and reserve.
This is what I was trained and aslo what I train to my students. In my opinion it keeps things fairly simple while also conveying the fact that not all things are equal. Yes, collisions and min cutaway altitudes are taught and very important.
As for myself, I have been known to pull at altitudes from which I do not want to be wasting time pulling the only handle that will not save my life during a PC in tow, so it is straight to silver for me.
This is what I was taught as well, and when I had a PC in tow earlier this summer, that is the procedure I used. I'm aware of the pro's and con's, but I think the important thing is to have a plan.... not to wait until he happens to make up your mind what to do.
Re: [JohnMitchell] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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But what if you're not in doubt? In our family, we train to simply pull the reserve for a pilot chute in tow.
The pilot chute in tow is in a gray area between a total malfunction and a partial malfunction. That's the reason for the debate on how to handle it.
For a true total malfunction, nothing out at all, were you trained to pull both handles or just the reserve?
I think the question a lot of newer jumpers (like me) have is: how do you know immediately that you have a pilot-chute-in-tow? For example, couldn't it also be a bag lock? With a bag lock, the correct solution is to cut away and then pull reserve, right?
I agree that there's no question that cutting away and pulling reserve will take more time than just pulling reserve. But I would also think that determining whether you have a pilot-chute-in-tow or bag lock will also take a second or two. If so, then it would seem to make sense that one's EPs for "I've pulled the pilot chute and I'm still in freefall" is:
1. Twist a bit and look up to see if there's anything opening (and also to possibly dislodge the pilot chute from your burble, if that's the problem).
2. If you don't see an opening canopy, cut away and pull reserve.
It would seem to me that the time it takes to cut away is approximately equal to the time for your brain to process whether you've got a black bag floating around up there or nothing -- whereas recognizing that you don't have an opening canopy is a lot easier.
Re: [azureriders] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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How do we identify a Total? Total implys that nothing worked. Therefore if the PC is extracted from the BOC, then at least that worked and anything that follows is a partial.
A total by definition means that the main CONTAINER is closed. Thus there is no deployment of the main. A pilot chute in tow is a total.
Whether you are taught to cutaway then pull reserve, or to go straight to the reserve DO SOMETHING!
Personally, I will go straight for the reserve. I would rather deal with a two out situation that I have some control over than a cutaway main entangled in my reserve.
Re: [wildcard451] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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...when in doubt punch right punch left ...
Not trying to be an internet dick, but that thought and reaction certainly may have been a killer in the Brazil canopy collision fatality (yes I know, avoid the collision).
Know why you do each set of EPs for each situation. Don't just instinctively Cut and reserve, as it may not be the right course.
that wasnt all I was taught, I just mentioned it for this particular mal, I would obviously take everything that's going on at the time under consideration ...
Re: [shah269] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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For the record I think the SIM indicates to look left then right so allow better air flow to the Pilot. If that does not solve the mal then to "cut" and deploy reserve.
The SIM has both EP's listed without preference to either one.
When you've been cheating death as long as I have, you'll realize that sometimes there are no clear cut answers.
(This post was edited by JohnMitchell on Oct 14, 2009, 2:47 PM)
Re: [JohnMitchell] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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>Maybe some worry that the departing main, with its lines and risers, may >entangle the inflating reserve.
Or the (still-attached) main may foul the reserve, start spinning, and wrap it before it can be cut away. This is especially an issue for high performance mains. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Re: [JohnMitchell] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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Maybe some worry that the departing main, with its lines and risers, may entangle the inflating reserve.
That, and a reserve is never guaranteed to work. If it doesn't, and I didn't cut away, I might still be able to get my main out. If I did cut away, I've lost that option.
I don't remember what I was trained. I don't even remembered being trained what to do for a PCIT. I'm not sure if I wasn't taught or I just don't remember.
My plan is to go straight to reserve - which I did in April when I had a PCIT (fully inflated, non-collapsible PC on a wingsuit jump). The main container opened after the reserve deployed. I watched the bag fall down past my feet, the canopy come out of the bag and hang below me, then slowly start to inflate while moving backwards and upwards. I chopped while it was still below horizontal.
Re: [ghost47] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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I think the question a lot of newer jumpers (like me) have is: how do you know immediately that you have a pilot-chute-in-tow? For example, couldn't it also be a bag lock?
You can easily tell them apart by looking at them. It will be obvious which you have.
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I agree that there's no question that cutting away and pulling reserve will take more time than just pulling reserve. But I would also think that determining whether you have a pilot-chute-in-tow or bag lock will also take a second or two. If so, then it would seem to make sense that one's EPs for "I've pulled the pilot chute and I'm still in freefall" is:
I would always identify the problem before trying to rectify it. How do you know you don't just have the PC in your burble? Looking over your shoulder to identify the problem will spill air over your shoulder and you'll probably get a normal main deployment.
(This post was edited by BrianM on Oct 14, 2009, 4:23 PM)
Re: [BrianM] Pilot Chute in Tow Procedure
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I would always identify the problem before trying to rectify it. How do you know you don't just have the PC in your burble? Looking over your shoulder to identify the problem will spill air over your shoulder and you'll probably get a normal main deployment.
Exactly. Especially with today's big wingsuits, this can easily happen. Rotating your head to look, even just the act of bringing your hands to your handles may well clear the PC of the burble.
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