I'm trying to stack myself up against other jumpers of the same experience. To put things in perspective-- I have 80 jumps, have accumulated 29 minutes of freefall, was taught via SL at a small Cessna DZ where I still jump and 9500 are the highest jumps.
That said, skill-wise I can hardly get into a 4-way. Pretty much the only way my jumps are successful is if we do a docked exit and there is no turning of points involved. I can sometimes to an undocked 2-way, but even at that it takes thousands of feet. I seem to constantly sink out below my jump partners, even though I'm wearing a huge 1980's baggy-as-hell jumpsuit. (I've tried hugging the ball and all that) So where were other people when they were at my jump numbers in terms of freefall skill? I think I might be a little bit behind.
Most definatley. I'm not really upset about it-- I jump, I have fun, I try my damndest to stay safe and that's it.. I'm just interested to size myself up and see where I'm at compared to where most are/were.
Re: [ryan_d_sucks] How good were you?
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1980's baggy-as-hell jumpsuit. (I've tried hugging the ball and all that)
And all that IS 80's shit. Get your butt to a turbine DZ.. get ya a real RW suit built for anvils, get some coaching on the Mantis position and quit hugging the ball....
If you have the right suit with some ZP wings (Tony and Flitesuit can help) and mantis, you can dig your elbows in to inflate the ZP inner sleeve, de-arch slightly and fly with your legs while keeping level with the formation.
What does jumping out of a Cessna vs. a turbine have to do with flying ability/fall rate?
But I agree with getting a suit that fits you properly. It will make ALL the difference in the world. I even had to buy a second new suit to get a proper fit, and it has made a huge difference.
And a bit of time in the tunnel is totally worth it. I know of a cheap tunnel camp in August in Denver if you're interested. Contact "rehmwa".
Re: [ryan_d_sucks] How good were you?
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Well just hink of it this way what other activity have you only done for less than a half an hour, and you have some skills in. The whole thing about flying relative to people is they should try to fly relative to you. And auctually when you hug the beachball you decrease your surface area. Try making yourself into a nice big x and then lift your hips slightly. remember it's all in the hips.
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I tended to out-float my jumping buddies all the time so besides exits, not much relative work was being done. My 100th jump was my first 4way, me with 3 instructors, exit was ok, after that, I totally funneled it, all by myself
Unless the 182 DZ is taking you to 13000 you get a lot more practice time out of a turbine. At 9500-4500 at a 182 DZ that is about 38ish seconds to practice, at 13000-4500 at a turbine DZ that is 55ish seconds of practice time. That is a gain of 17 seconds or almost 40% more practice time.
The Beach ball method is old school and mantis will slow you down a lot more if you want to learn the body position. I learned a lot by watching tunnel flyers for a few hours one day, the mantis will fall way slower then any ball hugging will go.
Ryan, if you make a drive there are 3-4 good DZ's not that far away that will push you a lot further then you are now. West of you is Skydive Chicago and Chicagoland Skydiving Center. Both have a large and active RW and specifically 4 way crowd. Those teams are involved in coaching around the DZ and can teach you how to exit smoothly and make more successful skydives. East of you is Start Skydiving where there is Fastrax and a very large RW crowd to teach you some of the advanced body positions that will let you really move on to the next level. Head to a larger DZ and ask their manifest to point you to some of their advanced RW flyers for some pointers. My experience at almost every large DZ there will be someone to be able to help you unless they are busy with team stuff or students. Some times there are even camps being ran at the DZ's that focus on this type of training for the jumpers interested.
And auctually when you hug the beachball you decrease your surface area. Try making yourself into a nice big x and then lift your hips slightly. remember it's all in the hips.
That trick can certainly make you go up BUT it won't let a person fly. To put things in persperctive, my daughter went to a tunnel when she had twelve jumps. After going to the tunnel, she could control her fall rate, do center point turns, and also do a reasonable side slide.
She now has around 150 jumps and competes on a 4-way team in the Northern Plains Skydiving league with Team JETT. At her last meet their team did a 17 point skydive in time. IMO there is very little chance that she could have done that without tunnel time.
However another person asked the question if you were still having fun and you replied that you were. Having fun is the key and a person can have fun in a lot of different ways in this sport. However, if you want to develop you skill set quicker in this sport then finding a good tunnel and a good coach would certainly help.
Re: [ryan_d_sucks] How good were you?
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Ryan- I wouldn't say you are "behind" others of your approximate jump numbers- I would say that there are others out there like myself that have had the advantage of alot of tunnel time to learn to fly better sooner, thus placing us "ahead" of the norm. Tunnel time is a great way to gain control of your flying and fall rate in less time. If you come to Denver for the August tunnel camp, let me know and we can go jump at Mile High and get in some 60 second belly jumps(exit at 13,500 AGL). The extra fall time also helps in the execution of what you have learned in the tunnel. (Fall time seconds really do add up, I only have about 100 jumps and over an hour of freefall time logged to date) Bill
Unless the 182 DZ is taking you to 13000 you get a lot more practice time out of a turbine. At 9500-4500 at a 182 DZ that is about 38ish seconds to practice, at 13000-4500 at a turbine DZ that is 55ish seconds of practice time. That is a gain of 17 seconds or almost 40% more practice time.
And at about 40% more the cost.
55 jumps at Skydive Chicago =$1375 and about 50 minutes of free fall time using the figures above.
$1375 at the price of where Ryan jumps gets him about 48 1/2 minutes of free fall time (and as a bonus, 21 more canopy rides).
Another tool that can help is find out if there is a local skydiving league. We have the NPSL, as JustChuteMe mentioned, here in the MN/WI/IA area. I don't know if its just because Sandy Grillet is awesome, but we have world class coaches come to those meets. They help us engineer, dirt dive, and give us the secret shit. As an added bonus, we get to spend 1-2 hours with the coach the next day debriefing. Try to get a pick up team together, or email your league's director and see if he can put word out that you are looking to put together a rookie or A division team. You'll learn a ton, and have a blast.
Indiana is part of the MidEast Skydiving League, they currently are running their meets out of Start Skydiving and I know the meet director will try to help out and find people if you let him know you are intersted. Last meet was 2 weeks ago so the next meet is about 3-4 weeks away.
I asked Mel this exact same question at Elsinore a couple weekends ago, and she gave me some great advice.
First off, baggy jumpsuits don't help a whole lot. You're creating more drag, which will likely only limit your maneuvering, not your fall rate.
Seondly, the whole "grabbin the beach ball" think is BS. Dearching is not a way to slow your fall rate. When you dearch, you are not increasing your surface area. Instead you are changing the way the air flows over your body. Just like a round chute, you spill air, and are in a less stable position.
Now there really isn't much you can do if you fall too far below a formation, but the best advice she gave me is to pivot your upper body. Make yourself wider, and flatter, but still keeping your hips as the lowest point.
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don't worry about where you are, compared to others, just worry about where you want to be, and how you are going to get there.
I've heard one school of thought , that the faster faller, should not have to try to slow down, it just limits his maneuverability. Instead, the other guys should go at his rate. However, that does not mean the faster guy should hard arch and drop like a stone. *i like this train of thought, because I am one of them faster fallers*
One thing you can do in the air, when you have dropped below the others. DON'T look up at them, this will cause you to arch more, and fall faster. Instead, try to turn sideways to the formation, and cock your head sideways. you will be able to keep your eyes on the formation, without arching harder, giving them an easier time getting to you. Low person can't fly up, but the higher guys can get to the low person.
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I truly sucked at 80 jumps. I suck slightly less now, but not all that much less.
Get some coaching, it doesn't matter if its out of a 182 or a 727, as long as its from a top quality coach that teaches modern techniques. You'll feel better and you'll perform better. Get some canopy coaching too, that will help you out as well.
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If there is a single person who can fall at a rate that you're comfortable at, practice doing 2-ways with them. Just work on docking cleanly and turning slow points. Why slow? Because deliberately slow points take more proximity control than fast when you're new.
Your jumpsuit probably isn't helping, but it isn't hurting as much as some say. It's quite possible do to RW with big jumpsuits; that's what everone used through the early 80's. You'll probably end up getting something more modern, but a lot of it is just learning to fly your body.
But you have to be somewhat comfortable flying your body at its natural speed to start learning how to fly it at slower speeds. Friends can weight up if that's what it takes.
9500 feet is less time than a lot of people get, so you have to plan your dives. Don't pull the 2-way off, just focus at first on just building a 2-way -- that's flying too, and it makes the subterminal air part of the skydive, rather than something you just have to get past.
I was no natural; at 80 jumps I was probably pretty equivalent to you, but it was just more the norm in those days.
As long as you're enjoying the journey, all you have to do is to make progress towards your goal; the goal isn't the whole thing.
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I agree with Aggie Dave and Wendy! At 80 jumps I really sucked. I had the opposite problem since I was older, I couldn't arch as much so fell slower. I could not get down to a formation until almost break-off.
I rarely got invited to jump with the better skydivers until I had over 300 jumps.
The key for me was when my friends and I started trying to fly together instead of jumping out and hoping for the best. They got looser suits and I put on weights.
Look at the jumpsuits your friends are wearing. Are your friends your size, larger, smaller. If they are smaller and in cotton or loose suits, you will fall faster than them.
See if your rigger can out swoop cords in your current suit first and get to a wind tunnel as soon as you can.
Exposure to more and advanced methods that will prove more successful than the current methods learned.
I'm not sure what the implication is regarding your statement but there are many world record holders in many different disciplines that jump at Cessna DZs. A lot of high quality learning can take place at a Cessna DZ. As was mentioned earlier by Wildfan, for the same amount of money the freefall time is realatively close but more jumps take place.
Regardless of where a peson is jumping, quality instruction is important. Of course all Cessna DZs won't have quality instruction any more than all turbine DZs will have quality instruction. However, at least IMO the exposure to more and advanced methods that prove successful for people learning this sport have less to do with the plane than the instructors doing the teaching.
Re: [JustChuteMeNow] How good were you?
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The complete statement was; "Turbine [DZ] - as in whole experience of exposure to the entire experience and opportunities for advancement...
There are pros and cons to both a Turbine and a Cessna DZ. By exposure, let's be honest... at a single Cessna DZ, one cannot accumulate the number of quality jumps in as short a period of time (how many skydivers have the "opportunity" to make 500 jumps in a year at a Cessna DZ), the exposure to multiple disciplines in a single weekend, advanced flying techniques (as in this case of "hugging the ball" ), etc.
At a turbine DZ, one can get coaching in a specific area and get ten jumps practicing what they learned in a single day, whereas, at a Cessna DZ, they may get a couple of coach jumps, have to wait for the student load or two or three, maybe get a sunset hop n pop, etc.
In this particular instance, to this particular individual, we have a situation where someone with 84 jumps is learning 80's shit. My point was to go to a large turbine DZ for the exposure to a sundry of disciplines, methods, advanced flying techniques, exits, etc. and that turbine DZ will exponentially increase the learning curve. Plus, it prepares them to be safer at a boogie in the future.
I'll challenge anyone to compare any a sampling of skydivers with 84 jumps from a Cessna DZ to any a similar number of skydivers with 84 jumps at a turbine DZ and the skillset will be higher at the turbine DZ. I used to have a Cessna DZ and would encourage those with less than a 100 jumps to go to turbine DZ's. Go, learn, come back, share.
(This post was edited by BIGUN on Jul 30, 2008, 2:04 PM)
Re: [ryan_d_sucks] How good were you?
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Comparing yourself to others is a dangerous game. I mean, that's what competitions are, but they are also supposed to be fun. I guess the point I am trying to make is that while sometimes you want to see how you stack up against someone else, don't worry too much about it.
People learn at different speeds and some people have different advantages that let them learn faster. In our student program at my DZ we have had people who could fly mantis before they got their A license and we have had people who could barely dock on a 4-way. In the end, all of them were capable of jumping out of a plane and saving their own life. As long as you can do that you are able to learn and move on!
Cessna DZ vs. Turbine DZ can matter sometimes and in other circumstances it doesn't. A lot of it depends on how many jumps you can make in a day and how much exposure you can get. If you are trying to consider how fast you can learn something, repetition (perfect practice makes perfect) lets you learn.
If all you can do is 1-2 jumps a weekend, it's going to take you longer to catch on, not a bad thing, just how it is.
Just keep jumping and have fun, don't rush through the sport, you're only going to burn out if you try and do that.
I'll challenge anyone to compare any skydiver with 84 jumps from a Cessna DZ to any skydiver with 84 jumps at a turbine DZ and the skillset will be higher at the turbine DZ. I used to have a Cessna DZ and would encourage those with less than a 100 jumps to go to turbine DZ's. Go, learn, come back, share.
I'd take that challenge. I'll put up any skydiver from my dinky little dz against anyone from a turbine dz.
Last year we attempted a women's state record at Couch. The girl with twice as many jumps as me all out of a turbine took out the formation...twice (including tracking under it when she went low). I got to my slot (multiple times after being taken out a couple of times by those turbine-goddess (tongue in cheek)).
I was doing multiple point 4 ways, and 8 way formation loads before I had 50 jumps, and never once had I set foot on a turbine dz, more less an actual turbine aircraft.
4 of us underpriviledged Cessna kids put together a 4 way team last year. Our average jump number was about 275 and 1 1/2 years in the sport. We ended the year ranked 4th nationally in the A division. Not too bad for having a total of 2 Otter practice jumps (which ended up being our only Otter practice jumps) before our first competition.
JustChuteMe did a better job at explaining my point. It's not what you're jumping out of. Its the "quality" of instruction (and your ability to respond to corrections) available. But to think that you HAVE to go to a turbine dz to find quality instruction/coaching is just absurd and rather offensive.
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I'm trying to stack myself up against other jumpers of the same experience. To put things in perspective-- I have 80 jumps, have accumulated 29 minutes of freefall, was taught via SL at a small Cessna DZ where I still jump and 9500 are the highest jumps.
That said, skill-wise I can hardly get into a 4-way. Pretty much the only way my jumps are successful is if we do a docked exit and there is no turning of points involved. I can sometimes to an undocked 2-way, but even at that it takes thousands of feet. I seem to constantly sink out below my jump partners, even though I'm wearing a huge 1980's baggy-as-hell jumpsuit. (I've tried hugging the ball and all that) So where were other people when they were at my jump numbers in terms of freefall skill? I think I might be a little bit behind.
I'm also a cessna DZ baby. I did my first 4-way around 50 jumps, not fantastic by any means but I did dock! However it was clear from the response I got from the more experienced jumpers in my first few 3 and 4-ways that they were surprised that we managed to turn a few points If your cessna DZ is any like the 2 I have jumped at, you should find some friendly experienced jumpers willing to go jump with a newbie. Ask... it really helped to be able to jump with people who can compensate, and give you decent advice (though jumping with other low number jumpers is also good to make you work!!) At around 80 jumps I did a couple of hours tunnel time and it was a huge help, so something I would highly recommend - even if you can't do it regularly because of distance/money/whatever, some time now focusing on freefall/FS skills will help give you a step up to making the jumps easier. And like someone else said, don't forget to have fun!!
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