I would rather use a more gentle carving turn to final that builds a little extra speed, but also leaves a more immediate out and keeps you more under the canopy. Simply put, its much safer then aggressively hooking a tandem.
I'm all about the swooping (obviously), but I keep the hard-core turns to my sport rig and when a student isn't depending on my ability and luck.
I doubt that many here are going to "stand up" and say "I do it!" That said, I was at the last DZO meeting in conjunction with the Winter BOD meeting. On this topic, two DZOs did just that, stood up and said "We do it!" One in Hawaii said "With the high winds in Hawaii we do it!" Another DZO near Huston stated "With the low winds in South Texas we do it!"
I have been known to do a carving turn to final/flair, but the canopy barely tips, or dives just gives a little extra speed.
Re: [skydived19006] tandem hook turns
[In reply to]
Can't Post
I know some guys that are TI's in Hawaii and from what they say they feel like they have to because the wind is so stiff and I guess the winds are the norm?
A stall surge seems much more forgiving to me, and is thus my preferred method of building speed. I'll sometimes do a carving turn to final, but watching guys hook tandems so low that they've removed their margin for error scares me.
It is marginally more forgiving, however, it is still a fairly unforgiving maneuver. You're still getting steep on the recovery arc and you have an amount of time and altitude in which there is no chance of recovery.
That is one of the reasons why I like a more gentle/carving turn. You stay more under the canopy and are able to recover the canopy much quicker.
I've seen someone pound in doing the stall surge incorrectly and I've seen someone hit hard trying to hook a tandem. Thank god in both cases the injuries were minor. They could have been much worst.
A stall surge seems much more forgiving to me, and is thus my preferred method of building speed. I'll sometimes do a carving turn to final, but watching guys hook tandems so low that they've removed their margin for error scares me.
Blues, Dave
I really don't like the stall surge. Makes the canopy unstable in turbulence and dust devils like we have here in AZ. and there is that little bit in the beginning where there is no flare at all so if you do it to low your fucked.
Ive also seen people doing a proper stall surge and still get pounded. Thermals and rotters can create havoc on any landing but especially when you take the control out intentionally at such a low altitude with no recovery room.
If the winds are so high that you would otherwise be backing up on landing it might be to windy???????
Having backed in a couple over time it seems a bit to dangerous for an everyday procedure. Why would anyone want to put a tandem passenger in that situation.
Hook turns are for swoopers and should be left out of the tandem experience. If you cant land your tandem canopy without some sort of performance enhancing landing technique get a new canopy or a new JOB!
I do not consider a slow turn to be performance enhancing as much as it is control of position and speed of the landing. That said it should not be needed for a good landing. If you have to build speed for a safe landing something is wrong but this is definitely the safest way to go about it.
JM2C
(This post was edited by douwanto on Oct 12, 2009, 4:54 PM)
If the winds are so high that you would otherwise be backing up on landing it might be to windy?
I would agree, but the people that actually have a grievance in this point are people in places like Hawaii. I can't speak to that.
I can speak to HOT no-wind days and that most my tandems are right at the weight limit. Even then, I still agree with this: "it should not be needed for a good landing."
A majority of TI's I've seen that constantly toggle whip tandems are doing it specifically for their ego.
Re: [skydived19006] tandem hook turns
[In reply to]
Can't Post
I was in hawaii for a while and I have seen just as many canopies fold up close to the ground with a hook turn as I have with normal straight in approaches. And they all swear that you can't land without doing a dirty toggle whipping hook turns. I don't think it makes one bit of difference as long as you are letting the parachute fly and stay as pressurized as possible.
I would like to her form the people that think it's perfectly alright to toggle whip tondems. Why do you do it and do you think (does it actually) give you any advantage over those that fly a "normal" pattern with a surge approach or a slow carving turn to final?
To me a good steady 90 turn always gave the tandem canopy a bit more lift with the higher winds or none at all. But baring my preference the DZO announced this past year that the sink and surge method would be used by all TI's regardless off comfort level.
Cant say i totally agree, but those be the rules.
IMO: If you have steady winds 10-20, no need for either, its those turbulent or light gust days where keeping up the speed helps maintain the lift.
i was 4 yrs doing tandems on saipan,most of the time a straight in,or surge approach was impossible,the ground winds would change 90 to 100 degrees constantly,and the turbulence was incredible. we would call it if we got gusts over 15 knots.it became mandatory to do at least a carving turn,and the landing area was relatively small,with no outs. it was a tough gig ,but the lifestyle was great.
I can speak to HOT no-wind days and that most my tandems are right at the weight limit. Even then, I still agree with this: "it should not be needed for a good landing."
That. For me, enhanced speed is good on high density altitude, no wind days. If I'm going to be landing with some momentum no matter what I do, a little extra helps me ensure it's horizontal speed, not vertical. I'd rather smoothly touch down at 15 mph than drop from 2 feet at 5 mph.
It's silly to have to say, but I don't think I hook turn. I do not bury a toggle and hope. I do add speed, usually no more than 45-90 degrees, and usually a slow turn so I always have an out.
On very windy days, I tend to like to increase my turn to 180, again not a very aggressive turn, I don't want to take away too much of my speed to start, and once it gets going, I can flare at any time and have instant response. I prefer to stay on the wind line, my dz can be fairly turbulent.
No real way to back it up, but if you can't do it right, don't do it at all. Only competent canopy pilots should consider adding speed for any landings, not just tandems. Just cause it works for me, I don't recommend it for everyone.
i was 4 yrs doing tandems on saipan,most of the time a straight in,or surge approach was impossible,the ground winds would change 90 to 100 degrees constantly,and the turbulence was incredible. we would call it if we got gusts over 15 knots.it became mandatory to do at least a carving turn,and the landing area was relatively small,with no outs. it was a tough gig ,but the lifestyle was great.
I worked for the same outfit as des but in Guam. I didn't believe it until I was in the same situation. We would work in conditions constantly pushing 20 knots. We had one gal insisting on working for the dz doing outside video. She got her one jump. She came straight in & was the wind's bitch. She was dumped on her ass and broke her heal. It was actually scarrier watching a straight in landing than aggressive flying. Not to mention, you really had to have the good accuracy. There were shaggers waiting to help you when you land and you really needed to land next to them. So yes, I've done them! I'm not advocating them but when you're in the same situation.....the light will come one and you'll understand.
With that said...there are way too many TI's that should even be doing tandems, much less hook turning a tandem in.
There is a subtle difference between old-school "hook and hope" versus gradual toggle carves.
During the 1990s, I saw toggle hook turns fall in and out of fashion in Perris. If I hear one more skydiver brag about being a "Stiletto Pilot" I am going to vomit all over his shoes!
Toggle hook turns are silly - on SET 400s - because the canopy has such a short recovery arc, meaning that you have to stab a toggle so low that there is little margin for error.
On the other hand, gradual toggle carves can built up a significant amount of extra forward speed, but can flatten out much quicker. The primary disadvantage with carving turns is that it confuses the guys behind you. How are they supposed to know which direction to land?
If you don't understand the difference - between craving versus "hook and hope" - you should not try either maneuver.
