I think the term bragging has different cultural interpretations, us Brits see bragging as a negative thing, the Americans on the other hand, could possibly use the term "to brag" to voice "pride" in an accomplishment context, which I think is where Ron was coming from...
Saying "no one should be able to brag" around skydivers is like going to a chili convention and saying "no one should be able to fart." Skydivers are often alpha personality types, and many of them like to talk about what they do. Sometimes they're worth listening to - get Kate, or Denny, or Sandy Reid telling stories, and you'll not only hear some amazing ones but you'll learn a thing or two. And if someone with 400 jumps and a brand new tandem rating starts talking about how great doing tandems is, and what a great freeflyer he is too? Just smile and nod. Most skydivers go through that phase - just as they go through a phase where they think they know everything, and they go through a phase where they feel compelled to tell everyone how fake the latest skydiving scene in a movie is. It's all part of finding one's place in the sport.
Of course, some of them never leave that phase . . .
(This post was edited by billvon on Jan 6, 2004, 4:33 PM)
No matter what the rating, AFF, TI etc. the key word is STAFF
The DZO trusts a few of us to take care of shit when they can't be on every load, and sometimes when they are. Just because someone is a good belly or freeflyer doesn't make them any more knowledgeable about the nuances and safety of each load.
All my other points were made by Ron & others (thank you guys)
My main point... think before you speak. I always look at peoples profiles before I pass judgement, and It's amazing the pattern that develops...
Don't go too fast, but also don't be afraid to try anything new. If you have been able to handle your Sabre 170 for 100 jumps, and have managed to make it through some pretty weird landings, go ahead and try out a 150! But remember, you have to be confident enough to KNOW you can handle it. Just don't be afraid of it.
The above is a quote from your website. In a section on "Tips for New Jumpers".
While there is some merit to what you say it leaves out far too much info to be of any value. What if the guy already is overloading his 170 for his experience level. Say he has 150 jumps with a hundred on the 170 and weighs 220lbs. You dont mention wing loading at all in your advice. Wing loading is extremely important as is experience on the canopy and total jump numbers as well as a few other things. I guess thats how YOU got to your 150 so its OK for everyone else too. Sheesh.
Let me try not to offend you but YOU best keep YOUR advice to yourself until YOU KNOW what you are talking about.
Here's another gem from your site:"TIP #3
ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS do a gear check before every jump!!! It could save your life!! I have had things happen to me where a gear check possibly saved my life, such as once I had a broken closing loop and didn't know it until someone did a gear check on me and my main fell to the ground. Think of what would have happened if I jumped with that thing! Can you say "PREMATURE DEPLOYMENT"?? So remember, ALWAYS do a gear check before EVERY jump. It could save your or someone else's life."
How did you possibly get that far with a CL THAT BAD? Your tip should have been "check your gear before you put it on, save yourself the embarrassment of looking like an idiot at the loading area"
I didn't misunderstand you. If I have a choice between taking advice from a AD licensed FF coach and a TM on freeflying, I'll take the coach. In fact, I wouldn't listen to a TM with 4000 jumps, but less FF jumps than me. Gladly, I've never met a TM like that who felt he needed to help me out with my sit. But if I did, I wouldn't listen. Now, if he was talking to me about canopy control, that would be a different story.
First of all,that pin check thing was 3 years ago. This pin check was on the ground, just as I was putting on my rig. I was a newbie. I fucked up. I'm teaching others from my mistakes that could have killed me.
Now look, I apologized several times for miswording shit, what else do you want from me???? Apparently you didn't read my follow ups, or didn't take the time. Now I'm tryin' to be a good guy about this, but God damnit, you won't even take the time to read thru the whole post.
I was a dick, I know, but I didn't mean to be. I apologized, now what do you want, my fucking heart on a plate for you so you can shove it in my face??????
As far as I'm concerned, I meant my apology, sincerely, and if I'm gonna be attacked here for fucking up and wording things wrong as we ALL do, even after ADMITTING I was wrong, you're not worth my time or my effort to reconcile any differences between us, because apparently a thousand apologies doesn't mean shit to you.
BACK OFF, OKAY?
(This post was edited by WrongWay on Jan 6, 2004, 7:34 PM)
I read your letter and I read a few more past Ron's and I think Ron got it about right.. I am a TM and I worked my ass off to get that rating. I fly anything and everything, flat, vrw,crw or what you got.. I like reading some of your post, but you lost me by slamming instructors. If you have a thing for a few guys out there, then approach them and state your feeling, I hope that if I upset others they come straight to me about the problem. All I can ask is how does your foot taste? Think first bro, talk to indivduals and don't throw us all in a group. I am a TM, but I am also an Instructor, SDU COACH and the USPA did not give me that rating, I had to earn it
Like I said bro, I meant in NO WAY to slam instructors, and I felt really bad about it when I accidentally did. Sorry man, I honestly meant nothing towards you or any instructors. I know you guys worked your asses off for that, and you know much more about the sport than I do. I was just trying to make a point, and severely fucked up in making an example for it.
I just re read the whole thread and I respectfully disagree. You made a specific slam on TI's and now you're backpedalling.JMHO
I read your letter and I read a few more past Ron's and I think Ron got it about right.. I am a TM and I worked my ass off to get that rating. I fly anything and everything, flat, vrw,crw or what you got.. I like reading some of your post, but you lost me by slamming instructors. If you have a thing for a few guys out there, then approach them and state your feeling, I hope that if I upset others they come straight to me about the problem. All I can ask is how does your foot taste? Think first bro, talk to indivduals and don't throw us all in a group. I am a TM, but I am also an Instructor, SDU COACH and the USPA did not give me that rating, I had to earn it
Like I said bro, I meant in NO WAY to slam instructors, and I felt really bad about it when I accidentally did. Sorry man, I honestly meant nothing towards you or any instructors. I know you guys worked your asses off for that, and you know much more about the sport than I do. I was just trying to make a point, and severely fucked up in making an example for it.
I just re read the whole thread and I respectfully disagree. You made a specific slam on TI's and now you're backpedalling.JMHO
Damn, I apologized. What more do you want from me? Are you intent on supporting the "As the prop turns" bullshit we all hear about? For Christ's sake, I practically grobbled on my knees in this thread asking for forgiveness, admitting my own fuck up, and here you are agging it on. Are you ready to grow out of your childish games and accept a person's sincere apology, and just fucking let it go, or are you going to keep being a child and desperately need to have the last word???? If you wanna attack me, you can PM me, or call me, or come tell me to my face here in Ohio, I don't care. But frankly, I apologized for wording things the way I did, and I meant every word of that apology, and if that's not worth anything to you, that's your choice. But it's also your choice to be the responsible adult you are (I'm assuming you are a responsible adult because you're apparently a TM), accept my sincere apology, and quit being such a bloody jerk about it.
I said: I respectfully disagree. Respectfully disagree.
With this: "Like I said bro, I meant in NO WAY to slam instructors, and I felt really bad about it when I accidentally did."
I disagree it was an accident. I wasnt slamming you for what you said. Just pointing out I disagree and think its disingenuous at best. I think you were slamming TI's. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
I hear what you're saying. I have over 4000 dives, made up roughly of
900 FS (Pre booties, best was a 13 in time - and I coach NO ONE on FS)
600 CF Rotation (Down the back, best is a 13)
1200 AFF (That's quite a lot here)
300 Camera (Mainly 4 and 8 way)
700 Tandem (Hardly current, maybe 80 a year)
100 demo's (In the past when I thought it mattered)
and a handful of Freefly and Birdman dives, where I am 100% student and am taught by people with 10% of my total dives.
I've been on DZ's for 19 years, hold SL, AFF and TM ratings, jumped canopies from mil surplus rounds to 100sq ft elipticals, competed at a world meet, broken myself twice, saved peoples asses, done a couple of BASE jumps and seen people come, go and die.
I won't teach you.
I don't have the skills.
Edit. OK. read the whole thread. apology accepted. Those with 5 jumps have an infinite amount more dives than 99% of the people on the planet. Those with 10000 jumps have practiced their art for maybe 150 hours - or less than a week. Aggie nailed it. We're all beginners, and should stay hungry to learn.
t
(This post was edited by Tonto on Jan 7, 2004, 4:54 AM)
No Tonto, you have LOTS of skills, you know me better than that and you know that's not what I'm sayin'. You gots mad skills homie. (Holy fuck I'm white....)
Whoa, what a conversation! Sorry I am way too stupid to do those "quote and "mark -thingies. You stated on your original post:...nor am I slamming on the hard working tandem masters that do an excellent job ... All I'm trying to do here is send out a quick message for love and mutual respect...and I would appreciate your listening with an open mind.
Love and mutual respect is good. Showing off is not good. Something must have gone wrong because people got upset. Well, I didn´t. Maybe that is because of this foreign language...( I even thought Skygod is a positive word). I think you got a point there, no more apologies, please. It was a good conversation. ****
(This post was edited by McG on Jan 7, 2004, 7:31 AM)
I read the original post, and some of the responses, gave up due to the lenght, so if I'm repeating anything, sorry...
First off, anyone who has survived even 100 tandems deserves your respect and the time it takes to listen to them. I've done 6 tandems, all with expereinced jumpers, and it sucks. I've filmed thousands, and have seen what passengers will do. You don't know what those guys are up against, and trust me, you don't want to.
There's two ways to be a skygod. One is to spout off with info to everyone about everything (sort of like what you are complaining about). The other is the guy who won't listen to advice. Maybe it's because they think they know it all, or the giver of the advice doesn't know enough, but anyway you slice it, you have put yourself into that catagory.
Wise up and understand that you will never know it all. It doesn't matter where advice is coming from, listen to it, consider it carefully, and act accordingly. By the time Olav showed up, there were jumpers with thousands of jumps, and decades in the sport, but the fact is that the newbie had some good ideas (which you have based all your jumps on thusfar).
Furthermore, by the time a TM has 3000 jumps, he's not concerned with impressing anyone with his knowledge. If he takes the time to say something, it's because he has something to contribute, and you need to listen to that.
Drop the attitude, open up your mind, and see what happens. If a TM has something to say, worst case scenario is that you spend two minutes to listen to the guy, and maybe you make a friend. If it's a newbie with an idea, you may learn something, or you may discover an incorrect line of thought that could lead to an incident, which you could correct. Either way, shut your mouth, open your ears, learn more than the next guy, and be a better person because of it.
Maybe it's because they think they know it all, or the giver of the advice doesn't know enough, but anyway you slice it, you have put yourself into that catagory.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but as I stated earlier, I do not know everything, in fact I hardly anything for that matter. I ALWAYS listen to what people have to say when they give advice, EXCEPT when they come up and say in a cocky manner that this is the way it should be done cuz that's the way they do it when they haven't even done it that much. That's all I'm saying. I'm not throwing in people's faces that I know more than they do, cuz I sure as hell don't.
I'm just saying that someone with 5000 tandems, or 5000 freeflys, or 5000 BASE jumps should not be giving out advice on 4 way if they have 50 4ways.
Is that a fair description of what I'm trying to get across?
It appears to me that this entire thread got out of hand. I read the original post, with repsonses and I think some people took it the wrong way (no pun intended). Maybe it's the lack of skill that I have, but I don't understand how everyone can get so pissed off about this. The way i read the original thread was like this: Some tandem instructor who maybe has 1000s of tandem jumps and very little experience in other displines (more power to the TMs, someone has to do it), went up to someone with 1000s of jumps in another disipline and started to tell them what they SHOULD be doing. Maybe it was just a conversation? maybe it was more? maybe it was a 3rd party story? but it can definitly be put to use in other disiplines not just tandem instructors. It would be like me (which i barely have any jumps anyway) going up to someone with 50 RW jumps and telling them what they should be doing on their dives. It makes no sense. Yes, last year my RW coach who has 1000s of jumps, asked me advice on some FF techniques. She was very experienced in RW, but not FF (of course i'm not either, but i was learning quite quickly).
It's very apparent that Wrongway has appologized for any context that could have been taken the wrong way, and if people's egos are too big to accept that, well i didn't think skydivers were like that. It's very apparent from all the messages posted that the original post was misintended, and wrongway meant no harm by it. My 2 cents.
Sorry I am way too stupid to do those "quote and "mark -thingies. 
