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Pull our or BOC?

 

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ifics  (B License)

Mar 23, 2004, 1:19 PM
Post #1 of 76 (1784 views)
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Pull our or BOC? Can't Post

Since there seems to be a big debate about PC in tow and a Pull Out would completely eliminate this why isn't every rig a Pull Out? What is the downside of a Pull out? I will be getting a new container after awhile and would like to know the good and bad about both. If they are about the same but one can eliminate a potentially serious problem why not just go with a Pull out?


Hazarrd

Mar 23, 2004, 1:30 PM
Post #2 of 76 (1741 views)
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Re: [ifics] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

One reason some people don't get a pullout is that if you get go of the PC accidently before it catches here it can fall into dead air behind you and not inflate.


piisfish

Mar 23, 2004, 1:31 PM
Post #3 of 76 (1740 views)
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Re: [ifics] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

pull out's also have their cons...
it's like having to choose AAD / no AAD , RSL / no RSL, etc etc etc...


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 23, 2004, 1:54 PM
Post #4 of 76 (1722 views)
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Re: [ifics] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Since there seems to be a big debate about PC in tow and a Pull Out would completely eliminate this why isn't every rig a Pull Out?

1) The p/c in tow IS possible on a Pullout. I've seen it hapen, and heard about it more than once. It's rare though. The bridal can wrap the p/c and choke it off if it's not packed carefuly.

2) Less packer friendly, and some say it's easier to pack it as a mal by twisting the gromet the pud lanyard runs through. Not a problem if you do a good gear check on the ground.

3) a lazy throw will be less likely to result in an imediate deployment than with a trow out. Not a problem, just reinforces the need to have a vigerous throw.


I jump a pull out.

Why?

I "know" when the container is open. The likelyhood of a horseshoe malfunction from a premature main container opening is close to nil. A horseshoe is the single scariest malfunction I can think of.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Mar 23, 2004, 1:55 PM)


skydiverek  (C 952)

Mar 23, 2004, 2:08 PM
Post #5 of 76 (1711 views)
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Re: [ifics] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Check this post:

http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=991985#991985

Smile


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Mar 23, 2004, 2:51 PM
Post #6 of 76 (1679 views)
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Re: [ifics] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since there seems to be a big debate about PC in tow and a Pull Out would completely eliminate this why isn't every rig a Pull Out?

The Pull-Out version of a PC-in-tow is called "floating PUD".


ifics  (B License)

Mar 23, 2004, 3:08 PM
Post #7 of 76 (1674 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thx that answers a lot!


payback462

Mar 23, 2004, 4:10 PM
Post #8 of 76 (1651 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The Pull-Out version of a PC-in-tow is called "floating PUD".

comepletely untrue.
a floating pud means that your pilot chute is still in the container, an the pin is still in. but your pud handle is unvelcroed, IE floating.
the procedures for this are, try once try twice, (altitude allowing of course) then go for the reserve.
unlike with a PC in tow. it has almost no chance of the main deploying from the lack of pressure on the divider wall.

definetaly not the same as a PC in tow


fool  (B 5047)

Mar 23, 2004, 4:33 PM
Post #9 of 76 (1637 views)
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Re: [payback462] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

exactly. I'd much rather, if need be, deploy a reserve with a little pud handle out in the breeze than into my pc... I'd more than likely try to contain the pc in the tow situation, but that eats up time too... I'd just rather go pud. I also have found that since having my rig converted, I get stood up in the harness faster too. The opening isn't harder, just faster snatch.


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Mar 23, 2004, 4:34 PM
Post #10 of 76 (1635 views)
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Re: [payback462] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The Pull-Out version of a PC-in-tow is called "floating PUD".

comepletely untrue.
a floating pud means that your pilot chute is still in the container, an the pin is still in. but your pud handle is unvelcroed, IE floating.
the procedures for this are, try once try twice, (altitude allowing of course) then go for the reserve.
unlike with a PC in tow. it has almost no chance of the main deploying from the lack of pressure on the divider wall.

definetaly not the same as a PC in tow

I meant they are moral equivalents, not exactly the same thing.

I felt the comment I replied to was saying "people with throw-outs get PCs in tow; why not just all switch to pull-out to solve this, since they don't get PCs in tow?". So my point was that pull-outs may not get PCs in tow, but they have something else that can go wrong: floating pud.

It is my understanding (based on zero pull-out jumps) that a short/weak pull can free the pud from its storage place but leave the container closed. If this happens, the jumper has a total and it's time to begin EPs, which you have nicely described. Smile

So I mean to say that changing from throw-out to pull-out to prevent PCs in tow is not a free lunch because the problem isn't just the towability of the PC, it's failures in the manual deployment initiation (and luck).

I see now that you are saying a pull-out system can't end up in a certain kind of towed PC that is peculiar to throw-out: a properly-routed, free-flying, cocked and non-worn-out pilot chute failing to pull the pin until the reserve is deployed and relieves pressure on the dividing wall, resulting in a two-out. This is quite true - a floating PUD shouldn't have enough drag to pull the pin by itself. But the pull-out system does have another moral equivalent: the pin is pulled and the PC inflates fine but the bag is stuck in the container.

So, is a stuck closed curved pin towing a good throw-out PC more or less likely than a stuck d-bag towing a good pull-out PC? Sly

Personally, I don't believe in stuck closed curved pins towing good PCs. I believe in misrouted PCs, uncocked PCs, PCs with excessively-shrunken kill ines, bridle-choked PCs, PCs wrapped around limbs, PCs with worn-out fabric*, and PCs all out of trim. I also believe in lost handles. Maybe when I get more jumps I will change my mind.

(* I'm gradually believing less and less in PCs with worn-out fabric, since I don't think the pull force of a PC is very dependent on its non-permeability. I do believe PCs could be way out of trim by the time their fabric is considered "old", so there could be a misplacement of cause here. Clearly some testing is in order....)


jumpwally  (D License)

Mar 23, 2004, 4:39 PM
Post #11 of 76 (1633 views)
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Re: [fool] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

ok..lets add this to the mix,,,bottom of container vs legstrap? you can see it on your leg vs reaching back blind.....opinions please....


relyon  (D 18973)

Mar 23, 2004, 4:55 PM
Post #12 of 76 (1623 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Personally, I don't believe in stuck closed curved pins towing good PCs.

I didn't either until I saw an example of just that on a CRW jump during the 2002 Americas record at Lake Wales. Eric Johnson had his Lightning BOC retractable bridle (red Dacron suspension line) wrap around the curved pin the same way a boater ties off a line on a cleat. He wrestled with the towed PC for 8000', pulling it every way he could (left side, right side, over the shoulder) before deploying his reserve at 4000' (ironically repacked the night before - it was the first jump of the day).

I'd have a hard time believing it had I not seen it myself. Even on the ground, I could pick up the rig by the main bridle and heft it up and down and it still remained closed. A freak occurrence for sure.

Bob


seal_S49

Mar 23, 2004, 6:09 PM
Post #13 of 76 (1606 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the pull-out system does have another moral equivalent: the pin is pulled and the PC inflates fine but the bag is stuck in the container.

Do you lay in bed at night & think up this shit? If an incident report of this even exists, it's certainly not as common as a PC in tow or a horseshoe. But I know somebody will post that they swear they have seen it happen. Anyway, if indeed it was to happen, no PC/bridle/bag combination could be immune from this rarity. Not even your sacred throw-out.


In reply to:
a properly-routed, free-flying, cocked and non-worn-out pilot chute failing to pull the pin

Although this is uncommon, plain old idiotic packing or gear-up mistakes are not uncommon and that's how most PCs in tow are caused. Pack a total with a pull-out or have a floating pud & you still have a decent shot at a clean reserve deployment.

S49


(This post was edited by seal_S49 on Mar 23, 2004, 7:05 PM)


hookitt  (D License)

Mar 23, 2004, 6:20 PM
Post #14 of 76 (1602 views)
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Re: [payback462] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
it has almost no chance of the main deploying from the lack of pressure on the divider wall.

I borrowed a rig, the pull out was packed slightly incorrect and I didn't check properly. Unimpressed The handle yanked out of my hand. I did my 2 attempts and pulled both cutaway and reserve handles at the same time. Blammo, the reserve opened, soon followed by the main.The bagged canopy fell to the ground as I followed it.

The pressure on the divider wall was relieved so just the weight of the handle finished pulling the pin.

You're still right, it's not likely the main container will open. However, when there's no pressure on the divider wall, there is usually no tension on the main closing loop either. The weight of the dangling pull-out handle is easily enough to open the container.

Just be aware.


payback462

Mar 23, 2004, 7:07 PM
Post #15 of 76 (1576 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So, is a stuck closed curved pin towing a good throw-out PC more or less likely than a stuck d-bag towing a good pull-out PC?

neither! because theyre good PCs Tongue
Quote:
I believe in misrouted PCs, uncocked PCs, PCs with excessively-shrunken kill ines, bridle-choked PCs, PCs wrapped around limbs, PCs with worn-out fabric*, and PCs all out of trim.
exacty! thats the point, all this stuff SHOULD
work when properly maintained, its when things arent looked after that shit USUALLY happensWink

Quote:
when there's no pressure on the divider wall, there is usually no tension on the main closing loop either.
good point, thats why i said almost, cause theyres never sure thingsWink

Quote:
ok..lets add this to the mix,,,bottom of container vs legstrap? you can see it on your leg vs reaching back blind.....opinions please....
way too much exposed bride for me
(read: any is too much for me)
and the slight (but very real) chance of giving yourself a horseshoe by accidentally pulling the exposed bridle when reaching for your handle.Pirate
the small advantage it gives during a horseshoe is the only upside i see, but for me, that is far outweighed by the downfalls.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Mar 23, 2004, 10:57 PM
Post #16 of 76 (1550 views)
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Re: [Hazarrd] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One reason some people don't get a pullout is that if you get go of the PC accidently before it catches here it can fall into dead air behind you and not inflate.

Really? And why would a BOC not do the same?

t


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Mar 23, 2004, 11:01 PM
Post #17 of 76 (1546 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The Pull-Out version of a PC-in-tow is called "floating PUD".

Except, of course, that if you have a "floating PUD" and you choose to immediatly fire your reserve or your cypres fires, your main container is closed and there is almost no risk of a main reserve entanglement.

t


(This post was edited by Tonto on Mar 23, 2004, 11:06 PM)


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Mar 24, 2004, 12:46 AM
Post #18 of 76 (1533 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

"bottom of container vs legstrap? you can see it on your leg vs reaching back blind.....opinions please.... "

Bad Juju for freeflying, premature deployments are no fun, and increased velcro to maintain/replace.
Reaching round blind is a wee bit of a falacy, how many people (100 jumps +) still look at their ROL at pull time? I'd wager very few.


scottjaco

Mar 24, 2004, 3:42 AM
Post #19 of 76 (1512 views)
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Re: [ifics] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

I like B.O.C. on principal.

It is a properly staged deployment.
Pilot chute catches air, pulls pin, pulls d-bag.

The Pull out system pops the pin and opens the container then pulls the pilot chute out.

You can't really pitch the pilot chute that far away from your body like with BOC. Why do you think they recommend BOC for wingsuit flyers?


meatbomb  (D 100967)

Mar 24, 2004, 4:00 AM
Post #20 of 76 (1501 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I like B.O.C. on principal.

It is a properly staged deployment.
Pilot chute catches air, pulls pin, pulls d-bag.

The Pull out system pops the pin and opens the container then pulls the pilot chute out.

I've always had a problem with this logic...Manually popping the pin to open the container, then deploying the pilot chute is how EVERY other method of personal deployment works. Static line (direct bag and pilot chute assist), freefall ripcord, and ALL reserves work the same as pull-out...Are you saying that only throw aways and tandem main deployments are proper deployments?????

Edit: for spelling.


(This post was edited by meatbomb on Mar 24, 2004, 4:04 AM)


seal_S49

Mar 24, 2004, 4:27 AM
Post #21 of 76 (1487 views)
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Re: [meatbomb] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Manually popping the pin to open the container, then deploying the pilot chute is how EVERY other method of personal deployment works.

Thanks MB and well spoken. Somebody needed to point this out.

S49


seal_S49

Mar 24, 2004, 4:42 AM
Post #22 of 76 (1476 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You can't really pitch the pilot chute that far away from your body like with BOC.

Clipped from my post a few day ago:

Throwing any hand deployed pilot chute is like throwing a feather in a hurricane. Either of these objects will go with the relative wind no matter how hard you throw them in any other direction. Pulling the pud to full arm extension insures its exposure to good air, and releasing it promptly insures that the bag won't escape ahead of the bridle. Many years ago I was incorrectly taught to forcefully throw the pud away from my body and found that most people tend to let go if it at the half-way point (bent elbow) as they follow through to arm extension with an empty hand. Like the feather analogy, the PC will never get any farther horizontally from your body than the release point, and it can get sucked into your burble.

...whether it's a pull-out or throw out.

S49


(This post was edited by seal_S49 on Mar 24, 2004, 4:43 AM)


USPA  (D 81812)

Mar 24, 2004, 1:04 PM
Post #23 of 76 (1407 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm very curious about the loop length on this rig. I know mine in a bitch to close, but I've also seen pull-outs with "pack-friendly" "long" loops. Personally I think pull-out i.c.w. a "too long" loop is a controdictio in terminus


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 24, 2004, 1:24 PM
Post #24 of 76 (1403 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You can't really pitch the pilot chute that far away from your body like with BOC.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

Jump the system and you'll see why.

Quote:
It is a properly staged deployment.

Who or where does it say that is the "proper" way to deploy a canopy? Your reserve sequence works more like a Pullout than a throw out.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Mar 24, 2004, 1:29 PM)


rigging65  (D 21921)

Mar 24, 2004, 8:51 PM
Post #25 of 76 (1364 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Pull our or BOC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It is a properly staged deployment.
Pilot chute catches air, pulls pin, pulls d-bag.

Says who?? It's only the proper, staged deployment if you define "proper" as based on a throw-out system.

Answer me this: How do you know FOR SURE that you're container is open after you pitch with a throw out? I'm talking about during that delay time before you get stood up. How long are you willing to wait to find out? With my pull-out, I KNOW when the container is open...and I know if it's locked up.


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