Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
When your student lands with the plane

 

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EricTheRed  (D 26763)

Mar 11, 2004, 1:59 PM
Post #1 of 29 (2143 views)
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When your student lands with the plane Can't Post

Just wanted to get an idea about this in general...

When you, as an instructor or coach, decide that your student will be landing with the plane, under what circumstances do you

A) Stay in the plane with them.

B) Jump anyway

I've done it a few times both ways - in general if it's due to lack of altitude (happens here in the NW from time to time) I'll tell the student to stay put and do a H+P. Otherwise I most likely will stay in the plane and enjoy the ride.


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Mar 11, 2004, 2:04 PM
Post #2 of 29 (2130 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

In my opinion the instructor should always stay in the plane if a student is going to be landing in the plane. You can never be sure what a studnet will do. Best to be sure and stay with the student - in the plane.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Mar 11, 2004, 2:06 PM
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Unless the student is self supervising, at least 1 jumpmaster better land with them.

On my first AFF jump the clouds closed up too much for me to jump so the 2 JM's did rock paper sissors to see who had to ride the plane down with me.

Judy


skyjunior  (D 23219)

Mar 11, 2004, 2:27 PM
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

On our dropzone someone will stay with the student. I have rode the plane down with a couple of static line students before. In my opinion the student is the instructors main responsibility and should be their focus until the student is safe on the ground and gear off.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 11, 2004, 2:31 PM
Post #5 of 29 (2084 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

One JM always stays with the student and rides the plane down anytime a student does not jump for any reason.


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Mar 11, 2004, 2:40 PM
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Always buckle up and ride the plane down with your student. I hate landing in the plane but its part of the job to stay with the student and keep them safe. Wouldn't be very professional to look at your student and say "Hey! Sucks to be you buddy, I'm outta here".


EricTheRed  (D 26763)

Mar 11, 2004, 2:59 PM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Wouldn't be very professional to look at your student and say "Hey! Sucks to be you buddy, I'm outta here".

Never done that...
And if it was a 1st jump I certainly would ride the plane down. On the times I've done it it was discussed on the ride up that we might not get altitude (my DZ does primarily SL progression) and the student had at least 10 jumps total in every case. Just not enough that I would be confortable letting them exit at 2,000 ft.

They have been briefed on aircraft emergencies, and do (in theory) know enough to not kill themselves. I've always considered this to be much the same as jumping from a plane with an observer on board.

Thanks for the feedback, I will definately be thinking about this more.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Mar 11, 2004, 3:26 PM
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

A true student should be ridden down with, but your rating shows you're a coach, therefore your person is not still on student status, are they? Someone off student status should be okay for riding down by themselves. The ones I watch for are the "no jump due to freaking out" or something. They usually need a little babysitting on the way down.Unsure


(This post was edited by JohnMitchell on Mar 11, 2004, 3:27 PM)


EricTheRed  (D 26763)

Mar 11, 2004, 4:03 PM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

USPA coach rating. Yes I do jump with students as well as newbie jumpers recently off of student status.
Student to me is defined as anyone without a license.

The question I now have is how do you handle what we call "observer rides" WUFFO's who go along for the trip to watch the fun, but don't intend to jump. I know DZ'z that do, and DZ's that don't allow this.

At our's they are under the direction and control (again, in theory) of the Pilot. They get an rudimentary emergency briefing (about 15 minutes of "DONT TOUCH ANYTHING AND KEEP YOUR SEATBELT ON UNLESS THE WINGS FALL OFF - If the wings do fall off AND the pilot tells you to, then jump out and pull this (RESERVE)
To me, a student that doesn't go would fit into the same category as long as there were no safety issues that caused the no-go.

I fully agree that I would never leave someone that freaked or couldn't get out due to fear. As I mentioned B4, it's always been due to weather and the student was fully prepped to ride the plane down.

Another conversation got me thinking about this though and I wanted to see what this group thought.


stl135

Mar 11, 2004, 5:28 PM
Post #10 of 29 (1963 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

JM stay with student in the plane. Cool


b1jercat  (B 26608)

Mar 11, 2004, 6:34 PM
Post #11 of 29 (1935 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

From the student side, first hop from 5500 lack of altitude, coach stays in plane with me. Low clear and pull from 3500 only get 3000, new coach, he jumps I ride the plane down. He gets his ass chewed. The way I look at it is I'm paying for a coached jump, if I can't go its no joy all the way around.

blues

jerry


cruzit  (D 17907)

Mar 11, 2004, 8:15 PM
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

I've only had it happen twice...both times with FJC students who decided that skydiving wasn't for them.

As the JM, it's your responsibility to stay with the student. My thought would be if the "student" was cleared to self-jumpmaster, he could be left in the plane alone...otherwise it's on the JM to maintain control of the student, even if it means riding the plane down.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 11, 2004, 8:50 PM
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Single Instructor jumps. ALWAYS ride the plane down with them.
2 Instructor jumps. I always make my reserve side ride it down with them! Sly


Shark  (D 24499)

Mar 11, 2004, 10:41 PM
Post #14 of 29 (1865 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

At least 1 instructor in the plane to ride down with the students, regardless of AFF jumps or coach.


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Mar 12, 2004, 6:27 AM
Post #15 of 29 (1785 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Wouldn't be very professional to look at your student and say "Hey! Sucks to be you buddy, I'm outta here".

Of course I didnt mean that literally, but that is the impression some students may get when you jump without them. It really shows the student youre looking out for them and their training if youre willing to hang with them no matter what. Like I said, I really hate riding the plane down but I know I get cool points with the student for doing it. Some things are just more important then logging another jump.


EricTheRed  (D 26763)

Mar 12, 2004, 7:13 AM
Post #16 of 29 (1769 views)
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Re: [b1jercat] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all the feedback.

At my DZ the student doesn't pay for the jump if they can't jump due to JM's call. JM eats his slot, DZO eats the student slot.

Thought here is that the student isn't able to make the call on GO-NO GO and it's not fair to bill them for a jump they didn't make.

Here it's up to the JM to try to guess the weather - if we guess wrong - we bought the slot, not the student.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Mar 12, 2004, 7:59 AM
Post #17 of 29 (1756 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

 

.....Smile The student may not need to be "babysat"
during the descent and landing,,, but the coach or JM should stay with them for a few reasons..
It can seem belittling if the more experienced jumper bails,,, further isolating the student who already feels,,, uncertain as it is.....
Depending on aircraft and rate of descent,,, ( fast King Air... or ground seeking turbine ) it's crucial that the AAD be considered,, and turned off if need be...
and of course... such a student can be super vulnerable once the landing is over,,, and they are disembarking the plane.... If it is a large plane with the pilot way far away from the door,, no one may be there to monitor the student,, assist with seatbelts.. hop out first to GET a Ladder,,, so that the student can safely exit... loud engines can easily
disguise spinning props.... and so a hand on the student or their gear as the TWO of you disembark...
is the responsible course to take....as you lead them safely away...
....Then discuss the circumstances and if possible head back to manifest to get on a load where the skydive CAN be accomplished as planned...


Ron

Mar 12, 2004, 10:00 AM
Post #18 of 29 (1716 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Stay with the student.

An Instructor should always stay with the students...

Now if there are two instructors...Only one has to stay.


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Mar 12, 2004, 11:33 AM
Post #19 of 29 (1696 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
JM eats his slot, DZO eats the student slot.

Man that's a tough call... I never had to eat the slot before. Been lucky and the DZO's I've worked for have always expected you to ride down with the student and therefore don't charge you.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 12, 2004, 12:35 PM
Post #20 of 29 (1679 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMO] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a tough call. When I was a jumpmaster & instructor, if the student refused, it was their nickel; if I saw something I didn't like, it was the DZ's nickel.

Now I never had to test that second one, but if the DZ trusts you to teach and potentially ground students, they should trust your judgement on not jumping, too. I'm pretty confident they'd've backed me up.

If they don't like your judgement, then they quit using you as a jumpmaster or instructor.

Oh -- and the only reason a student rides down alone is because the last remaining instructor or jumpmaster was extracted forcibly from the airplane.

Wendy W.


(This post was edited by wmw999 on Mar 12, 2004, 12:35 PM)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 12, 2004, 2:17 PM
Post #21 of 29 (1649 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow the DZO sure has your number. There is no way I'm getting into a plane for a work jump where my nickle is involved.
If a student who needs supervision dies while without supervision guess who gets to explain it to the judge. That said if you are not an instructor, just a coach, then coach your guy to stay in the plane and get out. As far as I understand the USPA coach system you are there to teach the sporting aspects of skydiving to someone who can supervise themselves. Does anyone have the privileges of a coach handy?
I do know one story where the PFF jumpmaster chose to leave her student in the plane. A C-205 had a level 1 and a level 3 set to leave in that order. The level 1, a petit blond, held onto the strut on exit and ended up sitting on the wheel. The two 200lb instructors reportedly both gave it the ol' college try to hang on but both let go. The instructor for the level 3 told her student to stay in the plane and took the level 1 student off the plane where she made a nice skydive and was passed to level 2 after some remedial exit training. Much beer was bought.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Mar 12, 2004, 3:24 PM
Post #22 of 29 (1634 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Add me to the list of Instructors who will always make sure one Instructor rides the plane down with the student. Always.


EricTheRed  (D 26763)

Mar 12, 2004, 4:08 PM
Post #23 of 29 (1618 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

OK - time for a little clarification.

I'm really talking about what you would call coach jumps. USPA allows jumpers with a coach's rating to supervise students (defined by me as anyone that does not have a license) on levels F,G,H. These 'students' have been cleared by an instructor as being able to exit stable, and pull without assistance.

In response to
Quote:
There is no way I'm getting into a plane for a work jump where my nickle is involved
I was only refering to weather calls where it was known BEFORE the jump that the weather is iffy. It happens. There are days where we just can't tell where the ceiling is giong to be, and it being the weather, it changes throughout the day. Here's an example: The last load got 5,500 but the pilot says it's dropping, my student needs 5,500 minimum for his jump. I say - lets go.
We get to 4,000 and run into crap. To maintain VFR we

I chose to take a chance on the weather and don't mind paying my slot - it was my bad call.

Besides, every jump I put a lot more than $15 at risk (does your DZ pay for the repack if you chop? How about your DV cam if it craps out when it gets wet from a sudden shower?) so it just doesn't bug me.

We have a small, very friendly DZ and we do what we can because we love what we do - it ain't about the $$. (not that $$ isn't nice, it's just that we know better)

Hope this doesn't come off as defensive, I do appreciate the comments.


Shark  (D 24499)

Mar 12, 2004, 9:03 PM
Post #24 of 29 (1593 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm really talking about what you would call coach jumps.

It shouldn't matter. As long as one instructor is riding down with the student(s).


D22369  (D 22369)

Mar 12, 2004, 9:50 PM
Post #25 of 29 (1585 views)
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Re: [EricTheRed] When your student lands with the plane [In reply to] Can't Post

The instructor should always accompany the student to the ground......

Roy


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