Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Open container in the plane, what would you do?

 

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AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 8, 2004, 2:16 PM
Post #1 of 30 (2042 views)
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Open container in the plane, what would you do? Can't Post

An interesting discussion has started in Incidents about this very subject, since that discussion belongs in this forum, I thought I would start it.

What would you do if someone had one of the following:

A pilot chute out
container open
reserve PC out
d-bag out
freebag out

or any other variation?

Now, what if it was a student?
What if the door was already open?


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Mar 8, 2004, 2:43 PM
Post #2 of 30 (1998 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've kicked a very low number jumper off a load for dislodging his main pin as he boarded. No one on board had a pullup cord.


But assuming we are at altitude:

Pilot cute out: Yell "pilot chute", grab it, keep it away from the door, repack it, skydive.

Container open: If I have a pullup cord, tell the pilot, make sure whoever is by the door knows to keep it shut, and reclose the container. No pullup cord - jumper sits back to wall and rides the plane down (pilot can close the door of our Cessna).

Reserve PC out - everyone lands with the plane.

d-bag out - If I have a pullup cord, reclose the container. It should be obvious how to get it back in without a step through.

freebag out - everyone lands with the plane.

If the door is already open, contain whatever you can contain and get the jumper out if necessary.


Kat1221  (C 3121)

Mar 8, 2004, 2:44 PM
Post #3 of 30 (1995 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

A very experienced JM had this happen this summer at our DZ. A girl who was to be last out had her main pin come out. The JM had the pilot keep the door closed, told the girl to lay flat on her stomach and used his shoelace as a pull-up to close the container. The girl then had an uneventful jump. We now keep a pull-up chord in the plane, just in case... This definitely shouldn't be done by everyone - the JM is extremely experienced.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Mar 8, 2004, 2:51 PM
Post #4 of 30 (1980 views)
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Re: [Kat1221] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Does no one else keep a pull up in their rig under their main webbing? Everyone I know does.

Anyway girl at our DZ had pin pop upon main pin check and D-bg fell onto floor unstowing some lines. It is a Sky Van DZ so she stayed up front with the pilot and landed with the plane. All others exited.

Hard to be generalistic as depends on plane. use common sense in each situation you are in...


Bip  (D 573)

Mar 8, 2004, 2:52 PM
Post #5 of 30 (1980 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

With a C-206, If the door is closed and my container opens, my practice has been to pack it then jump. Or if the plane does not have a door and the pc is secure I have still packed and jumped. If it is a reserve open or an un experienced jumper then the procedure has been for the plane to land with all jumpers. Regardless, the door is never opened if there is an open parachute in the aircraft.

I was in a C-207 without a door once when a belly reserve opened. Even without a pilot chute the reserve made straight for the door. Luckily the apex
lines (at the top of the canopy) caught on the door hinge and the jump master was quick to lie on top of the lines. the canopy was outside the aircraft. The pilot then made a very quick decent and landed on a road.

I have not jumped since 1996 so things are probably very different now. Smile


koz2000  (D License)

Mar 8, 2004, 2:53 PM
Post #6 of 30 (1977 views)
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Re: [Kat1221] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I always keep a pull-up cord in my suit as well as my container. Just in case of off-DZ landings (while you wait for a pick-up get ready to make the next load), or open container in the plane.


SkydiveMonkey  (B 102345)

Mar 8, 2004, 2:54 PM
Post #7 of 30 (1973 views)
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Re: [bmcd308] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll add to that - make them pull the cutaway handle. If the bag does go out for any reason, they don't get dragged out with it


Kat1221  (C 3121)

Mar 8, 2004, 2:57 PM
Post #8 of 30 (1961 views)
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Re: [CornishChris] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Does no one else keep a pull up in their rig under their main webbing? Everyone I know does.
In reply to:

This was a first jump student load (IAD), and the instructor didn't have his jumpsuit on since it was July and hot out. He had his second CRW rig on, which didn't have a pull-up. I have one in my jumpsuit pocket, and most people I know have one on them.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 8, 2004, 2:59 PM
Post #9 of 30 (1957 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMonkey] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'll add to that - make them pull the cutaway handle. If the bag does go out for any reason, they don't get dragged out with it
-------------------------------------------
An RSL could make this situation even worse.

Think through your actions before taking them.


sabr190  (D 22931)

Mar 8, 2004, 2:59 PM
Post #10 of 30 (1956 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure I agree with closing an open container in the plane, seems to me it would be safer to let them ride back down and have the container re-closed and fix the reason it came open in the first place.

I have had to deal with a spring loaded pilot chute coming out as a student turned to the door for climb out, he scubbed the pin out on the pilots seat (c-182). The pilot and I seized the pilot chute and pulled the student back in the plane, closed the door and landed. No problem, other than I had to clean out my shorts. If the pilot chute had made it out the door, I would have tried to push that student as far from the plane as possible. Sorry pal!


SkydiveMonkey  (B 102345)

Mar 8, 2004, 3:02 PM
Post #11 of 30 (1947 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
An RSL could make this situation even worse.

I don't use rsl's. did think about it after I posted though.


DeNReN  (B 5642)

Mar 8, 2004, 3:11 PM
Post #12 of 30 (1934 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

As with most "what if" questions there as always many varibles....ie: what plane,altitude,full load,position in the plane etc.etc....

A PC out on a IAD student before the door is open would not usually be a huge problem if he/she is the next out...as the instructor will be looking to handle the PC anyways...whereas a IAD student second to leave with a PC out could become a emergency.

Excellent thread to start AggieDave...hopefully this can be discussed rationally and with minimal chest thumping...with everyone stating the theoretical situation and there action to remedy it.

I hope to learn something without having to read too many personal attacks.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 8, 2004, 3:28 PM
Post #13 of 30 (1919 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends on the aircraft and the problem.

Initally close the door when the problem is discovered (of course.)

Fixable problem in a large aircraft - up to the jumper. He/she can choose to fix it (with help) or land with the plane. If he chooses to land with the plane, secure the rig (in the cockpit or something) and jump.

Small plane - judgement call. If they can be put in the back with their backs against the wall controlling their equipment, then it's probably OK to go. If moving into that position would make things worse, or it is too tight to do so, then the door stays closed and they land with the plane.


livnbored  (B 4076)

Mar 8, 2004, 4:20 PM
Post #14 of 30 (1891 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the container was open, I'd try to close it, if the pilot chute came out I'd stuff it back in (lest it be spring loaded)... but, again, doesn't a lot of this come back to prevention? I know a lot of people say they check their gear before they put it on, but come on, I work on a packing mat, I see how many people don't...and doesn't it also come back to teaching students about protecting their gear in the plane? I know that accidents happen, but gear checks help prevent them.


crutch  (D 10182)

Mar 8, 2004, 4:33 PM
Post #15 of 30 (1878 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What would you do if someone had one of the following:

A pilot chute out
container open
reserve PC out
d-bag out
freebag out

or any other variation?

Now, what if it was a student?
What if the door was already open?

Pilot chute out, this should be a a check done when getting up........repack it and get a pin check.

Container open.....close it. Have the pilot go around if you need an extra minute.

Reserve PC out.....door stays shut and everyone rides down, no questions asked!

d-bag out.....put it back in the container and close it, smae as above. If the jumper is unsure, ride the plane down, but still close the container before openning the door.

freebag out......again no question...everyone rides down.

Loose nylon in a plane is very dangerous, trust me, I have seen a pilot chute sneak out of the crack of a closed cessna door (catch me when I am drinking and I will tell you the story). Don't take it lightly, extreme caution, don't learn the hard way, listen to those of us who have been stupid in the past and were lucky enough the man upstairs wasn't ready for us!


dkf1979  (Student)

Mar 8, 2004, 5:03 PM
Post #16 of 30 (1865 views)
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Re: [crutch] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Take a look at this pic. Keep the door closed!


(This post was edited by dkf1979 on Mar 8, 2004, 5:03 PM)
Attachments: where's that pilot chute.jpg (17.4 KB)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 8, 2004, 6:58 PM
Post #17 of 30 (1817 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have be jumping almost 30 years and have seen this happen just 2 times. If this is a regular thing for you or at you home DZ, you need to find the root cause and make some changes.
In any case it should be delt with very conservatively, your PC and endanger the entire plane.
Sparky


wanab

Mar 8, 2004, 7:21 PM
Post #18 of 30 (1804 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just wanted to ask,(yes, I am new. And dont have any jumps as of yet, just thought it would be good to read up on safety before I go for my first)


What is:
1) reserve PC out
2) d-bag out
3) freebag out


I dont fully understand the terms as of yet


Thanks


dubbayab

Mar 8, 2004, 7:34 PM
Post #19 of 30 (1796 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting to move the post AggieDaveSmile, As a matter of fact, this very thing happened to me once. Open contianer on plane..I made a prommise to jump with my girl, she was late, last load and I wasent packed, so I decided to jump a student rig....... BOC type... when everyone hoped up on knees I asked a bud for a gear check, he said " no jump" my contianer was open. found a jumper with a pull up cord in his pocket, closed the contianer and it just poped open again in front of my eyes. Realized I couldn't jump, I had him hold the contianer closed as I pressed it against the rear of the pilot seat and remained there until we landed......my girl had to jump alone anyway.Frown
WB


(This post was edited by dubbayab on Mar 8, 2004, 7:44 PM)


Rdutch  (D 24618)

Mar 8, 2004, 9:04 PM
Post #20 of 30 (1771 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was once in a Skyvan that decended so fast that cypresses fired, this was on a pre-demo flybye. So, we had open, reserve containers. The wind flap on the skyvan was immediately closed, and the rigs were taken off, and secured. It was quite surprising to me how loud a cypress and a reserve fire is. Overall it was quite an expensive load.


AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 8, 2004, 9:23 PM
Post #21 of 30 (1762 views)
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Re: [wanab] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am new. And dont have any jumps as of yet, just thought it would be good to read up on safety before I go for my first)

You're going to overload yourself on info! Wait for the first jump course and listen to your instructors, they will tell you everything you need to know. Not only that, but there are very few singularly right things in this sport, they may teach differently then you learn here.

Go to a DZ and learn, good luck and keep us informed of how its going.Cool


yoink

Mar 9, 2004, 3:40 AM
Post #22 of 30 (1727 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I sat in a FJC this weekend (S/L). Our students are taught that if any part of the canopy or pilot chute comes out, jump on it; smother it; tell the instructor and get ready to land with the plane. No one is getting out.
The story in incidents scared me... I'd rather land with the plane than risk someone being pulled through the tail and killing us all.


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Mar 9, 2004, 7:05 AM
Post #23 of 30 (1670 views)
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Re: [yoink] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I sat in a FJC this weekend (S/L). Our students are taught that if any part of the canopy or pilot chute comes out, jump on it; smother it; tell the instructor and get ready to land with the plane. No one is getting out.
The story in incidents scared me... I'd rather land with the plane than risk someone being pulled through the tail and killing us all.

I'm not a pilot, but as a jumper that doesn't want to see the plane or pilot get hurt, this seems like the smartest and safest way to go.


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Mar 9, 2004, 7:52 AM
Post #24 of 30 (1643 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave, thank you for starting this thread, this is a great demonstration of this forum's intent. Since Safety Day is upon us; this is a good subject for review at the DZ this Saturday.

Ask yourself what would you do if:

DOOR CLOSED

1. If main, small A/C, and little experience...
Then;
2. If main, small A/C, and experienced...
Then;
3. If main, large A/C, and little experience...
Then;
4. If main, large A/C, and experienced...
Then;
5. If reserve, small A/C,
Then;
6. If reserve, large A/C,
Then;

DOOR OPEN

1. If main, small A/C, little experience and
a. pilot chute or material inside...
b. Then;
c. Pilot chute or material leaves
d. Then;
2. If main, small A/C, experienced and
a. Pilot chute or material inside…
b. Then;
c. Pilot chute or material leaves
d. Then;
3. If main, large A/C, little experience and
a. Pilot chute or material inside…
b. Then;
c. Pilot chute or material leaves
d. Then;
4. If main, large A/C, experienced and
a. Pilot chute or material inside…
b. Then;
c. Pilot chute or material leaves
d. Then;
5. If reserve, small A/C,
a. Pilot chute or material inside…
b. Then;
c. Pilot chute or material leaves
d. Then;
6. If reserve, large A/C,
a. Pilot chute or material inside…
b. Then;
c. Pilot chute or material leaves
d. Then;

My suggestion is not to necessarily respond to the thread, but to suggest that one might copy/paste into a separate document for consideration and discussion of what "you" might do in these situations. There are other variables to consider; like is the skydiver a student under the guidance of an Instructor, is the Instructor aware of the situation, etc.

As Derek often says: "Think."


(This post was edited by nightjumps on Mar 9, 2004, 7:55 AM)


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Mar 9, 2004, 2:02 PM
Post #25 of 30 (1554 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Open container in the plane, what would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd like to add to the tail end of any main container opening incident this step: check the jumper's closing loop back on the ground to see if it should be tightened / replaced. Loose or worn closing loops are everybody's problem.


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