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TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why?

 

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Poll: TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why?
0-3 126 / 41%
4-6 18 / 6%
7-9 4 / 1%
10 or MORE 18 / 6%
Why? Total Malfunction 19 / 6%
Why? Drogue Failure (Blows up,release failure) 7 / 2%
Why? Broken Lines 23 / 7%
Why? Packing Error 31 / 10%
Why? Main Canopy Failure 38 / 12%
Why? Misc Reasons (Feel Free To Explain) 27 / 9%
311 total votes
 
sabr190  (D 22931)

Mar 3, 2004, 4:48 PM
Post #1 of 89 (4529 views)
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TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? Can't Post

Hi TM's

Just curious about this, so feel free to post your horror stories, I am all about learning from people who have been there and done that. I personally have not had a tandem reserve ride.....yet, but I am told it's not a matter of if you will, but when you will.

Bill


pccoder  (A 43773)

Mar 3, 2004, 5:31 PM
Post #2 of 89 (4454 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Zero reserve rides.

Reason = Luck.

I try to be careful, maintain a good body position on opening, etc. but I figure it's just a matter of time before the s**t hits the fan, so I continue to practice the moves all the time so I'll be prepared for when it does happen.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 3, 2004, 5:37 PM
Post #3 of 89 (4442 views)
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Re: [pccoder] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

This poll was intended for Tandem Instructors...

0 out of about 50-60 tandems.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 3, 2004, 5:48 PM
Post #4 of 89 (4433 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

3 tandem mals. 2 tension knots; the third was either a tension knot or a lineover, it was spinning too much to see clearly. They were all on the older Strong 425's and 520's.


murps2000  (D 23114)

Mar 3, 2004, 6:18 PM
Post #5 of 89 (4407 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tandem #6 I cutaway from a step-thru. Did it more because I was pissed that somebody packed me that shit than out of necessity. But I'd also seen people land those before, and some of them didn't turn out so well. If I had it to do over, I'd do it a little differently. I think a set 400 with a step-thru might still land better than a master 425 reserve.

Poor girl, I'll never forget. It was her 18th birthday, my first cutaway, and my first puker, all in one jump, and right in front of her parents. Good arch for the cutaway, tho.

You know, the thing that impressed me most about a tandem cutaway was the amount of handles and cables I had in my hands when it was over. Like $300 worth of stuff.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Mar 3, 2004, 6:24 PM
Post #6 of 89 (4402 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Zero Cool

Why? Good packing and good maintenance!


skyjunior  (D 23219)

Mar 3, 2004, 7:03 PM
Post #7 of 89 (4388 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Two cutaways, they were lineovers I could not clear. The students were totally cool and bragged about the two rides for the price of one. I must say they were kind of unnerving as I did not think the reserve was ever going to deploy. I was lucky enough to have my first cutaway caught on tape by the video guy.


sabr190  (D 22931)

Mar 3, 2004, 7:07 PM
Post #8 of 89 (4383 views)
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Re: [murps2000] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Great respose! Keep 'em comingSmile


linestretch  (D 21060)

Mar 3, 2004, 8:30 PM
Post #9 of 89 (4347 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

one out of over 1,000. Not too bad huh. The drogue came out and knotted up with about 6 inches of bridle. Needless to say, it did little good. Pulled the reserve at about 8 grand, and had a master reserve at 8.5. I sorta blacked out from the opening, it hurt to say the least. It landed fine, my neck hurt bad, and I ruined a pair of underwear too. I was still holding the handle when I totally woke up and blinked away the stars.


AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 3, 2004, 8:47 PM
Post #10 of 89 (4339 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

0 rides out of roughly 300 tandems.

I had a couple that someone may have cutaway, but it wasn't as bad as it first looked.

Had a drogue wrap up in my brakes lines (weird, huh?) Had a stepthrough that worked down low enough so I could get the toggles out and fly normal. Also have had a couple that opened so slow that literally 3 cells on both sides were folded under. They both cleared cleanly so they worked.

I have a feeling that my first reserve ride (haven't had any, actually) will probably be on a tandem, just by looking at the odds; however, the gear is very very well maintained and the packing is 100% top notch!


John4455  (D 22657)

Mar 4, 2004, 4:28 AM
Post #11 of 89 (4281 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

0 for 300


pullhigh  (D 22774)

Mar 4, 2004, 5:12 AM
Post #12 of 89 (4256 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have had 3 tandem reserve rides in my 450ish tandem jumps. All were on Strong Dual Hawk systems with a drouge.

1st. An old Master 425 with flat lines. Tension knot at the slider, not letting the slider come all the way down. I pumped the brakes a few times trying to clear it and got rid of it. This was tandem jump number 13 for me.

2nd, An older set 400 with normal lines. Tension knot at the slider, not letting the slider come all the way down. I pumped breaks, pulled on risers, even pulled on individual lines, and could not get it to come down. I thought long and hard, and decided that it was probably landable, but we would be coming in fast, and my student would take the brunt of the impact. On that note, I decided to cut it away. This was tandem jump #14 for me, and it was the same afternoon as my first tandem cutaway. (When your lucky, your lucky).

3rd, I had a drogue in tow. Pulled the instructor's handle, still in drogue fall. Pulled the student's handle, still in drogues fall, and honestly a bit confused by then. What happens next is up for debate, and not the purpose of this thread, it can be seen in an old thread... I chose to pull the reserve first, and video clearly shows the drouge and reserve deployment dnacing together, but the reserve deployed cleanly. Next thing I felt was the main deployment bag bouncing at the back of my knees (you want to talk about being scared!) I pulled the cutaway handle and it was still there. I wiggled and kicked a littl, and the bag fell away. I founf out later that the canopy was coming out of the bag just before it released. I was very lucky on this one, but I feel I did the right thing for the situation that was dealt to me.

That's all folks, 3 cutaways in 450ish tandems. I really enjoy cutting away, what a sensation, but I'd just as well not have to do it with passengers strapped to me quite honestly. But for the record, none of them ever had a clue that anything went wrong.

The 2nd one, I'll never forget that guy's reaction. He had no idea what we had done. All he knew was that in his eyes, we had an open canopy, and then something "different" happened. When I decided it was time to chop, I told him to cross his arms again, like we did for exit. I pulled the cutaway handle, we went back into freefall. I immediately pulled the reserve handle, and we had a nice reserve opening. The next thing I got was "W'ere not going to do that again are we?" My reply was simply "We couldn't that again if we wanted to brother..."

Ganja "Did I type that much?" Rodriguez


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Mar 4, 2004, 5:21 AM
Post #13 of 89 (4253 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I forget.

A Baglock, Pressure knots, broken brake lines, colapsed drouges in tow....Frown

7 or 8, the last of which was followed by a reserve mal, a pressure knot which I managed to clear. (I posted the story in incidents.)

And that for 700 tandems.Crazy

My Tandem chop rate is higher than it was for competition rotation CF dives.

I don't own or pack the gear - for those who want to point the finger.

Right now - I feel like Tandem sucks, and I don't want to do any more.

Maybe later - but I doubt it. Why would I want some sweating slab of meat oozing arenaline strapped to me while I act as a biological AAD?

It would be wrong to resent the students desire - so I stopped doing tandem and have taken up the slack doing AFF.

t


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 4, 2004, 5:49 AM
Post #14 of 89 (4228 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Zero Cool

Why? Good packing and good maintenance!

Likewise. Zero tandem reserve rides in 500 tandems. Pack me a lineover and I will literally kick your ass. Totally unacceptable. It's for that reason that I always try to pack my own stuff (flat pack), and will then only allow a trusted colleague to do it if I can't. I have only ever allowed one person to PRO pack tandems for me and that person knew I would fire them if they ever packed a lineover.

Chuck


iowa  (D 16855)

Mar 4, 2004, 8:14 AM
Post #15 of 89 (4182 views)
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Re: [sabr190] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Four in almost 500 tandems now. My first mal ever was as a passenger for a friend working on his rating. It was kinda cool to have someone right there to talk about it. That was a lineover.

Next as the instructor had a very nasty, violent opening with about seven line twists. Unspun, went past straight flight with a twist and a half the other way. Came back around and had medium turn and dive going. Turned out to have blown three ribs nose to tail.

Broke a brake stow locking loop (new risers were ordered, [I know better] ) Reached for the toggles and the other broke. Went into a hard diving turn and spun itself up.

Riser broke right after opening once.

I look at the rigs and look after the maintenance better now.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 4, 2004, 8:36 AM
Post #16 of 89 (4172 views)
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Re: [iowa] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

18 reserve rides total
4 solo reserve rides,
all 14/2700 of my tandem reserve rides were with first-generation F-111 Strong 425 and 520 canopies.
Only one tandem terminal reserve ride caused by a hard pull on the drogue.
Had a couple of bag locks.
Cut away from a couple of line knots before I learned how to clear them.
All the rest were cutaways from broken lines or torn canopies. Also landed a couple of broken lines. I learned the hard way that one broken upper steering line is no big deal, but a broken A line lands far harder than I ever want to repeat.I also learned the hard way the small holes in the center top skin are a good reason for cutting away, but I have landed several canopies with bottom skins torn from nose to tail.

That being said, I am glad those F-111 canopies are gathering dust in the corner of my loft.
Anyone want to buy a Strong 425, cheap?


karenmeal  (D 24737)

Mar 4, 2004, 9:04 AM
Post #17 of 89 (4157 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Pack me a lineover and I will literally kick your ass.

I love that sort of vibe going on between DZ employees...

Tandems lineovers and tension knots are just going to happen.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 4, 2004, 9:55 AM
Post #18 of 89 (4137 views)
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Re: [karenmeal] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Line overs don't "just happen". Careless or sloppy packing causes line overs. Flat pack a tandem and you can make it a lot neater and greatly reduces the chances of a Lineover.


AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 4, 2004, 10:36 AM
Post #19 of 89 (4125 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

A correctly packed pro-pack can do basically the same.

My course director has some tricks to use while pro-packing a tandem that basically eliminate line-overs.

He hasn't had a lineover in something like 800+ tandems, since he started using the "PD flip" method with the lines once its on the ground. The last lineover he had was a number of years ago, same packer that packed a mal on his old Vengence 135 at a DZ he worked at one summer on the east coast.

I've packed something like 300-400 tandems before I was a TM and have roughly 300 tandem jumps now with no lineovers (or mals for that matter), all propacked.Cool

Although, I will agree that flat packing WILL reduce your overall mal rate, especially if your packers aren't that swift, but I wanted to state that a properly done pro-pack will work quite nice.


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Mar 4, 2004, 10:38 AM)


karenmeal  (D 24737)

Mar 4, 2004, 10:46 AM
Post #20 of 89 (4120 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

does anyone flat-pack icarus mains?


(This post was edited by karenmeal on Mar 4, 2004, 11:06 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 4, 2004, 10:55 AM
Post #21 of 89 (4116 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Line overs don't "just happen".

Lineovers sometimes just happen. Even correctly maintained, assembled and packed parachutes sometimes malfunction, open hard, or don't open at all.


mfrese  (D 20145)

Mar 4, 2004, 11:00 AM
Post #22 of 89 (4113 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just for the record, I'd argue that getting a stepthrough invalidates the "100% top notch" statement. Wink Can't think of a more fundamental mistake that proves a packer didn't do their job right...

But back to the thread...had 1 chop in almost 500 tandems, due to line twists. Icarus 365 main, wound up in about 7 twists, and those Vectran lines just wouldn't move. Worked it for about 1000 feet, then said see ya.


mfrese  (D 20145)

Mar 4, 2004, 11:08 AM
Post #23 of 89 (4104 views)
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Re: [karenmeal] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

All three DZs I've jumped at PRO pack their Icarus mains. At Hollister, I think they've only had one chop in the last 8 months or so, and if I recall, that one was due to, yes, a stepthrough (NOT packed by our regular packers).

Good packers can PRO pack these canopies very effectively, and I've never once come close to having a mal on any of them (looking around for wood to knock on...). They can occasionally open so slowly that I've started yanking toggles to get it to open, but no mals.


(This post was edited by mfrese on Mar 4, 2004, 1:27 PM)


karenmeal  (D 24737)

Mar 4, 2004, 11:13 AM
Post #24 of 89 (4100 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Flat pack a tandem and you can make it a lot neater and greatly reduces the chances of a Lineover.

You've proven yourself wrong.. by saying that a flat pack greatly reduces the chances of a lineover, you are also implying that sometimes lineovers just happen.

I'm just saying an attitude of: "I'll kick your ass if you pack me a lineover!" is a really crap attitude. I've pro-packed around 5,000 tandems and two were lineovers. If the tandem masters had considered that justification for beating me up.. I would have been more than a little pissed.

Back to the tandem reserve ride discussion...


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 4, 2004, 12:12 PM
Post #25 of 89 (4075 views)
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Re: [karenmeal] TM Poll: How many Reserve rides and Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
does anyone flat-pack icarus mains?

I will absolutely flat pack Icarus/Precision tandem mains.


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