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Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt

 


Poll: Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt
Along with other skydivers on the load, in accordance with DZ policy 7 / 16%
After reaching a safe tandem emergency exit altitude, in accordance with manufacturer training 23 / 53%
Just prior to hooking up the student 9 / 21%
Other - please explain 4 / 9%
43 total votes
 
Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Feb 29, 2004, 6:42 PM
Post #1 of 20 (2440 views)
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Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt Can't Post

Tandem Instructors: at what point on the climb to altitude do you have your student remove their seatbelt?


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 29, 2004, 6:47 PM
Post #2 of 20 (2399 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

In a 182 I would have the remove their seatbelt just prior to hook up, that was due to not being seated directly behind them.

In the Beech99 (or Otters, etc), I tend to connect a lateral and have them take their seatbelt off around 2k. In the event of an emergancy, I will be able to get atleast one of the uppers hooked on the way out the door. Since it will take probably atleast 2-5 seconds till I could exit from one of those planes (being in the front of the plane behind a good number of people), I would actually most likely have time to get all 4 connected before exiting.

Also, this is due to how I have the harness adjusted before we board the plane. It isn't cranked down all the way, still loose enough to keep the student comfy and loose enough to make hook up a bit easier, but tight enough that they're not going anywhere if we have to exit due to an emergancy.


masher  (D 3806)

Feb 29, 2004, 7:13 PM
Post #3 of 20 (2384 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In a 182 I would have the remove their seatbelt just prior to hook up, that was due to not being seated directly behind them.

Where do you sit?

We have a 182, and when there are tandems, the TM is pretty much always behind their student. When they aren't, the student is strapped in. When they are, they're hooked up with one top clip, which is undone at a safe altitude.

Do you adjust the student's harness in the plane? The students at our DZ have their harness put on "properly" (ie no further adjustment necessary) on the ground.


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 29, 2004, 7:24 PM
Post #4 of 20 (2371 views)
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Re: [masher] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

In a 182 I would sit in the back and put the student behind the pilot. I know some would sit "student" and put the student "JM", but in a 182 narrow, that's a bad idea, rubbing the rig on too many things and too many thing exposed to snage a drogue, IMHO.

So I would basically be facing the student in the back.

In the event of an emergancy, I could grab the left hook, get it to my left attatchment and basically drag them out of the plane (which would suck, but we'd be out if we had to be).

Quote:
Do you adjust the student's harness in the plane?

I adress this in more detail in the "harness" thread, but I'll give you the summary here.

Everything is set except for the tightness of the MLW and the diagonals (Sigma harness). The MLWs aren't totally loose, but loose enough for their comfort and to make hookup easier. The diagonals are usually tightened by about an inch after the MLWs are snugged down a bit more.

The harness is setup so they're comfy, its easier to hook up, but it'll still work just fine if we have to leave. The student would just hang a bit lower then usual under canopy.


jdthomas  (D License)

Feb 29, 2004, 8:02 PM
Post #5 of 20 (2351 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

 I have my student belted until I am ready to hook them up. when I am in the 182 I sit in the back and the student is behind the pilot.
Little Joe


pullhigh  (D 22774)

Mar 1, 2004, 5:43 AM
Post #6 of 20 (2268 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

In larger aircraft, I leave there seatbelt on until it's hookup time typically. In the case of "straddle benchs", I undo it when up jumpers are undoing theres, typically 1000', and I go ahead and hook up the lower connectors at that point, leaving them loose.

In a 182, I leave the seat belt on until hookup no matter what. It's scary enough if the door gets bumped open or something, much less if they have no since of security.

Ganja


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Mar 1, 2004, 9:45 AM
Post #7 of 20 (2195 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Tandem Instructors: at what point on the climb to altitude do you have your student remove their seatbelt?

Are you asking this because the student isn't attached to you for a large proportion of the flight to altitude? In the UK, seat-belts aren't required (although some planes have them and I use them when I can), but students are hooked up and remain connected to the instructor as soon as they get on board (once the engine(s) has started correctly), and for the whole of the flight.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 1, 2004, 9:54 AM
Post #8 of 20 (2190 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow. Hooked up and ready to exit from the time you enter the plane? Really? My body could not take too many trips to altitude with a 200 pounder sitting on my lap for an entire flight.

Anyway, in a large door aircraft I have them unhook their seatbelt at 2500 feet. Lower than that and I am landing with them and the plane if something goes wrong. I never bought into that whole "harness hanging off your ass" sloppiness that many large dropzones and even the GK tandem section uses. My students walk to the plane in a harness that is properly adjusted for the skydive.

In a 182 I put the student behind the pilot's seat facing the rear; I sit in the back. I tell them to take off their belt when its time to spin around, get on their knees in front of me and hook up.


AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 1, 2004, 10:00 AM
Post #9 of 20 (2185 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I never bought into that whole "harness hanging off your ass" sloppiness that many large dropzones and even the GK tandem section uses.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that is really bothered by that practice. Too many "what-ifs" in my opinion.Unsure


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Mar 1, 2004, 10:15 AM
Post #10 of 20 (2179 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow. Hooked up and ready to exit from the time you enter the plane? Really? My body could not take too many trips to altitude with a 200 pounder sitting on my lap for an entire flight.

Nor me Chuck, and I didn't say that :-) All four points of attachment are connected but the laterals are at full extension for comfort, and they are tightened prior to exit. Like Dave exiting with only one attachment point in an emergency, if we really needed to get out and the altitude allowed, we could, but it wouldn't be pretty. All of my tandems have been from Caravans (sit on the floor with student in front of you between legs), Skyvan (no seats so on the floor like the Caravan), TurboLets (large plane with more space than allowable jumpers so plenty of room and either sitting on the floor like the Caravan or on a wide bench with one leg up and one on the floor with the student between your legs like with the Caravan or Skyvan), G92 [Dornier 28 with super engines] (on a bench which can be straddled with both legs on the floor with student sitting in between your legs, and I think I did one of the floor there too). Never done a tandem out of anything smaller. Guess I'm spoiled.

In reply to:
Anyway, in a large door aircraft I have them unhook their seatbelt at 2500 feet. Lower than that and I am landing with them and the plane if something goes wrong. I never bought into that whole "harness hanging off your ass" sloppiness that many large dropzones and even the GK tandem section uses. My students walk to the plane in a harness that is properly adjusted for the skydive.

Isn't that the other thread? ;-)

By the way, I have 91 tandems.


Nightingale  (B 26984)

Mar 1, 2004, 2:26 PM
Post #11 of 20 (2143 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

At perris, the JM let me and my friend leave our belts on til hookup time. Makes sense, I guess. We weren't wearing parachutes, the door was open, and the argument for removing the belts is in case you have a canopy out in the plane. Tandem students don't have canopies.


jseiverth  (D 18628)

Mar 1, 2004, 4:51 PM
Post #12 of 20 (2119 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

At 3500 I have them take off their seatbelt and then hook up the latterals. I case of an emergency you just clip a shoulder(both if time permits) and go. Student should never have their seatbelt while they are not attached to a parachute in my opinion.
Jeff


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Mar 4, 2004, 12:18 PM
Post #13 of 20 (2030 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In a 182 I would sit in the back and put the student behind the pilot.

In reply to:
Video guy up front next to the pilot. I sit behind the Pilot's seat and put the student in the rear facing forward, 1) to minimize airsickness, and, 2) in the event of an emergency, they are to move forward and drop in the "doggy" position. Left snap is right in front of my left ring for a quick hookup. Seatbelt doesn't come off till we're ready to hook up. Student helmet off at 2000', hook it to the A/C airframe and hand them the frap hat.

Quote:
Everything is set except for the tightness of the MLW and the diagonals (Sigma harness). The MLWs aren't totally loose, but loose enough for their comfort and to make hookup easier. The diagonals are usually tightened by about an inch after the MLWs are snugged down a bit more.

The harness is setup so they're comfy, its easier to hook up, but it'll still work just fine if we have to leave. The student would just hang a bit lower then usual under canopy.

In reply to:
Ditto


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Mar 4, 2004, 12:33 PM
Post #14 of 20 (2026 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been thinking about doing a practice emergency dive (182) with an experienced skdiver and video guy.

5,000'. No practice. 5,000' - pilot calls engine out and throttles back. The only criteria I would have prior is the door cannot be opened till I say, "Door" (student hooked up).

Video guy bails, student does the waddle waddle while I'm hooking up the rest, get to the door, pull the student drogue release & pitch it to the back of the A/C, climbout, exit, pitch the drogue (now P/C) and wait for the long slow opening watching it the whole time.

Kinda like in the video. Anyone done this? Your thoughts?


AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 4, 2004, 1:49 PM
Post #15 of 20 (2018 views)
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Re: [nightjumps] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought about that before, although I would say, try it with an experienced jumper at 7k atleast. Why?

Well, all the whatifs. You can still accurately depect what will happen AND give you a room for error/malfunction. That would be the better option in my opinion.

If you and I together didn't absolutely overload the gear, I'd invite you down and we could try it!


sabr190  (D 22931)

Mar 4, 2004, 2:02 PM
Post #16 of 20 (2013 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

C182, usually around 7k, I like to check all student harness adjustments prior to hook-up, just to make sure a strap hasn't creeped, so we start around 7k with the checks.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Mar 4, 2004, 3:05 PM
Post #17 of 20 (2003 views)
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Re: [nightjumps] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Video guy bails, student does the waddle waddle while I'm hooking up the rest, get to the door, pull the student drogue release & pitch it to the back of the A/C, climbout, exit, pitch the drogue (now P/C) and wait for the long slow opening watching it the whole time.

Why? On Page 76 of the Tandem Vector2 Manual, it says,

Quote:
Note: If the exit is to be lower than 7500' (2500m) AGL do not pre-pull the drogue release handle prior to the deployment of the drogue. The handles, drogue and drogue release, must be pulled in the proper sequence to ensure the proper deployment.


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Mar 4, 2004, 3:20 PM
Post #18 of 20 (2000 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why? On Page 76 of the Tandem Vector2 Manual, it says,

Quote:
Note: If the exit is to be lower than 7500' (2500m) AGL do not pre-pull the drogue release handle prior to the deployment of the drogue. The handles, drogue and drogue release, must be pulled in the proper sequence to ensure the proper deployment.

On AggieDave's comment, yeah... 7-7,500 would probably be better. And you and I would seriously be testing the outter limits. Maybe we could get a job testing Tandems systems. Wink

You're right that is in the V2 Manual. I have a video out at the DZ (Sorry, I don't remember its name off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure its a Strong video). "IF" I remember correctly, he recommended 5,000 and demonstrates pulling the drogue release and pitching it, then leaving and throwing out the drogue to act as a PC. At 7,500, he recommends full drogue deployment and then drogue release. Don't hold me to those numbers, I'm trying to remember off the video.

I appreciate the input and am receptive to more info from those with more Tandems than me.

Keith


(This post was edited by nightjumps on Mar 4, 2004, 3:21 PM)


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Mar 4, 2004, 3:43 PM
Post #19 of 20 (1994 views)
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Re: [nightjumps] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

Pulling both drogue release handles before making an emergency exit is the proper procedure for a Strong rig. The drogue on the Strong system does not collapse until the canopy comes out of the bag, so the fully inflated drogue would still do its job in this case.

The Vector drogue collapses as soon as it is released, so pulling the drogue release handle before exit will only result in a delayed main canopy deployment (the drogue will be collapsed sonn after being thrown).

Pulling the drogue release handle(s) on a Sigma rig before exit will do nothing, since the curved safety pin keeps the straight main closing pin in place until the drogue is set.

As far as practicing emergency exits, I think expedited exits from lower altitudes with another TM or an experienced jumper who has made tandem exits on that equipment from that particular aircraft are worth the effort. I would make them no lower than 5500 FT - no sense in creating an emergency situation while training to prevent one. I would also take the time to do a full hookup and at least tighten snugly and evenly.

I have had two tandem emergency exits, both from 4000 FT. The first was an experienced student (8th tandem - 4th with me), and the second a first timer. In both cases we had plenty of time to completely hook up and tighten down - it did not take long at all.


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Mar 4, 2004, 3:46 PM
Post #20 of 20 (1989 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: Removal Of Student Seatbelt [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks John, That's the info I was looking for. Much appreciated.

Keith



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