Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!!

 

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scotts  (D 26696)

Feb 25, 2004, 3:58 PM
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     Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!!  

Reading another post in another forum, i see (AND I HOPE I'M WRONG) that we have a jumper with 50-100 jumps with a new canopy with a wing loading of 1.35 WTF! Mad.

I can only hope that their profile isn't updated.


feuergnom  (D License)

Feb 25, 2004, 4:00 PM
Post #2 of 93 (2247 views)
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     Re: [scotts] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

if you could be more specific this might turn into a usefull discussion Unsure


scotts  (D 26696)

Feb 25, 2004, 4:03 PM
Post #3 of 93 (2240 views)
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     Re: [feuergnom] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

"End Cell Collapse" in gear and rigging. The "Collapse" part caught my attention


Nutz  (D License)

Feb 25, 2004, 4:52 PM
Post #4 of 93 (2203 views)
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     Re: [scotts] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

I have been at 1.3 sinse about 30 jumps. Busted my ass for 10 or so then started getting standups. I'm at 234 now and no problems.

Cool


b1jercat  (B 26608)

Feb 25, 2004, 5:29 PM
Post #5 of 93 (2168 views)
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     Re: [scotts] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

Things that make you go hmmmm.
Don't look at my profile.

blues

jerry

Edit to add I was going to jump in and tell that guy not worry about end cell closure, but I'm a newbie and have to keep my fucking mouth shut!Tongue


(This post was edited by b1jercat on Feb 25, 2004, 5:32 PM)


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Feb 25, 2004, 6:09 PM
Post #6 of 93 (2142 views)
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     Re: [scotts] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Reading another post in another forum, i see (AND I HOPE I'M WRONG) that we have a jumper with 50-100 jumps with a new canopy with a wing loading of 1.35 WTF! Mad.

I can only hope that their profile isn't updated.

OMG!! 1.35, That thing is gonna kill him in his sleep for godsake!

Seriously, you have no idea what program he's in. There are many dzs that are that progressive and he may be at one of them. I'm sure his instructors know best... or at least better than you do.

Anyone ever heard the term, myob? If you don't know the situation, don't assume it is a fucked up one. Have you ever flown a 1.35w/l, btw?

Angela.


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Feb 25, 2004, 6:16 PM
Post #7 of 93 (2136 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Seriously, you have no idea what program he's in. There are many dzs that are that progressive and he may be at one of them. I'm sure his instructors know best... or at least better than you do.
Well sounds as though this person isnt in a program any longer. You are right though there are some dropzones that teach different methods. It would be interesting to see the statistics on injury.
In my opinion someone with 100 jumps should not be wl a canopy at 1.35 especially if it is an elliptical canopy ( I believe the one this person is flying is semi) even so thats more than a bit daring for someone of that experience.
Just my .02Smile


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Feb 25, 2004, 6:41 PM
Post #8 of 93 (2120 views)
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     Re: [bbarnhouse] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

And, this has been argued many times. I don't see the point of this post I guess. To start a flame fest? I don't necessarily think that a person with xx jump should be under a 1.35 w/l... but then, I have not flown at a 1.35w/l, so I can't make that call.

Angela.


WeakMindedFool  (D 28195)

Feb 25, 2004, 6:51 PM
Post #9 of 93 (2110 views)
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     Re: [scotts] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Reading another post in another forum, i see (AND I HOPE I'M WRONG) that we have a jumper with 50-100 jumps with a new canopy with a wing loading of 1.35 WTF! Mad.

I can only hope that their profile isn't updated.

I guess you could, I don't know, maybe post your concerns to me directly. That wouldn't be nearly as much fun though I agree but it would be the stand up thing to do (no pun intended).


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Feb 25, 2004, 6:52 PM
Post #10 of 93 (2109 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:
And, this has been argued many times. I don't see the point of this post I guess. To start a flame fest? I don't necessarily think that a person with xx jump should be under a 1.35 w/l... but then, I have not flown at a 1.35w/l, so I can't make that call.

I gave my opinion nothing more. A flame fest? Not at all.
I am just tired of seeing poeple get hurt, or scraping up the carnage because people wont listen to experienced jumpers.
I offered an opinion on safety and wing loading, which is appropriate to this thread. Sorry if you don't see the point of the post, but perhaps someone else willSmile


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Feb 25, 2004, 7:24 PM
Post #11 of 93 (2083 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Seriously, you have no idea what program he's in. There are many dzs that are that progressive and he may be at one of them. I'm sure his instructors know best... or at least better than you do.

Angela.


I know people point to SDCs program as being one of the more progressive around. However, 1.3:1 wingloading is NOT something that would be encouraged here. In fact, I have seen people discouraged from this wingloading this soon. I don't know of any program that is so advanced that would be good enough to have a jumper on a 1.3:1 loading with 100 or less jumps and an elliptical canopy.

I think most safety concerned people (even progressive minded ones) can see that this situation is not something that could be seen as good.


prost  (D 24959)

Feb 25, 2004, 8:09 PM
Post #12 of 93 (2053 views)
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     Re: [scotts] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

My first canopy was a sabre loaded at ~1.35. I got it at 23 jumps. I don't say this to say that it is acceptable just that is is more common than you think. To blow up and get mad is not the answer. We need to educate young jumpers before they purchase gear.


Blahr

Feb 25, 2004, 8:14 PM
Post #13 of 93 (2051 views)
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     Re: [scotts] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Reading another post in another forum, i see (AND I HOPE I'M WRONG) that we have a jumper with 50-100 jumps with a new canopy with a wing loading of 1.35 WTF! Mad.

I can only hope that their profile isn't updated.

I'm sure once the person in question reads your useful posting they will straighten right up and buy a bigger canopy.
Especially that big helpful "WTF" at the end. That'll get their ass right in gear!
Thank god for your thoughtful posting! You may have saved a life today Wink


(This post was edited by Blahr on Feb 25, 2004, 8:43 PM)


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Feb 25, 2004, 8:27 PM
Post #14 of 93 (2033 views)
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     Re: [diverdriver] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

Quote:
I think most safety concerned people (even progressive minded ones) can see that this situation is not something that could be seen as good.

Fair enough. But, how can people on a website, knowing nothing about xx jumpers progression or the instruction at his dz, question his instructors ability to put him under an appropriate wing?

Angela.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Feb 25, 2004, 9:12 PM
Post #15 of 93 (2007 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

Because at 99% of the DZ's in the US once some one gets their A licence they no longer have instructors watching them on every jump and they only times that they get noticed is when they royally screw the pooch and get caught doing it. Instructors are asked for judgement but most instructors don't have the time to watch every person on the DZ and make that call in detail. So some just say "you'll be fine as long as you don't do anything stupid". Some people on here take a different approach and assume you'll be hurt until you can prove them otherwise.

One of my friends is on crutches currently due to a mistake at the same loading and 800+ jumps and another new friend is in the ICU after making a mistake at about 1.3 with 175+ jumps and a LOT of personal canopy coaching. I would have figured neither of these girls to be hurt and I predicted I'd be in the hospital before the one.

I've avoided the hospital more times then I should have been able to during my intro to high proformance landings. I wore the knees out of a jump suit sliding on them so much. And that was with the same amount of canopy coaching 99% of the jumpers are getting. The only time I'd get advice is when I royally screwed up and some one saw. For a while I just tried to make sure no one saw my mistakes instead of just trying to prevent them in the first place.

One other thing to keep in mind is skydiving is a really small sport and if you fuck up majorly at one DZ and some one knows... odds are hundereds of people will know eventually through te grapevine.


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Feb 25, 2004, 9:29 PM)


twnsnd  (D 25389)

Feb 25, 2004, 9:14 PM
Post #16 of 93 (2007 views)
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     Re: [scotts] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

Why don't you send a private message to this person and find out what is going on. Then you will know if there is a good explanation or not. Hopefully they are gifted in the canopy control department and get constant coaching.


SkySlut  (D License)

Feb 26, 2004, 5:52 AM
Post #17 of 93 (1914 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

You are 100% correct that people cant accurately and shouldnt really judge over the internet...but what if their "instructors or mentors" on their DZ tell them that he/she shouldnt be jumping that canopy??? I know of quite a few DZs down in florida that when a person such as this walks up with their logbook and canopy...they will tell them that they can not jump there. I have seen it.

Fact is: Most deaths and injury in our sport comes from pilots under a fully functioning canopy. Bill Booths post a while back was great. It said something to the effect that the number of deaths in our sport stays constant over the years. As the sport gets safer with equipment, people still need to push the boundries past their skill level. (something to that effect) This fact is unfortunate. It only takes seeing a good friend or not so good friend either kill themselves or seriously hurt themselves once to change your opinion on this issue. Its a numbers game. You could do 2 jumps and hang around a dz for years keeping your eyes & ears open and gain more information than a person who has 35 or 100 jumps that is on the DZ and "has their eyes & ears closed". So jump numbers arent the biggest issue, just part of the whole "experience".

A good friend of mine told me when I started this sport that "you will see someone or know someone in this sport die...if you stay in it long enough". Well, I have seen several since I started in 2000. Thats not a long time. Along with the number of jumps you have comes...experience and with experience comes...seing some really unpleasant things in this sport. Thats how it works.

Again, seeing someone get hurt/die is one of the worst things...typically if you arent directly watching, the sound will let you know exactly what happened and usually prevent you from turning around. Its a sound that you will never forget and you hate to hear.

Some food for thought.


Ron

Feb 26, 2004, 6:15 AM
Post #18 of 93 (1899 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:
And, this has been argued many times. I don't see the point of this post I guess. To start a flame fest? I don't necessarily think that a person with xx jump should be under a 1.35 w/l... but then, I have not flown at a 1.35w/l, so I can't make that call.

I HAVE flown that wingload...And wingloads almost TWICE that.

A person with 50 jumps should not be under a 1.35 wingload....And I AM an INSTRUCTOR, have a PRO RATING and have more less than perfect landings than you have jumps.

Now what ya got to say?


Scrumpot  (D License)

Feb 26, 2004, 8:23 AM
Post #19 of 93 (1824 views)
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     Re: [WeakMindedFool] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

Quote:
...maybe post your concerns to me directly. That wouldn't be nearly as much fun though I agree but it would be the stand up thing to do (no pun intended).

Okay, I'll do that. Your profile says that you have a current grand total of only 54 jumps, yet your are also under a wing loading of greater than 1.3-to-1.

Care to explain?


WILDBILLAQR  (D 29042)

Feb 26, 2004, 8:23 AM
Post #20 of 93 (1823 views)
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     Re: [Ron] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

Maybe they will never land out.
Maybe they will never have to make a low turn to avoid someone who doesn't see them.
Maybe they will never f**k up or brain fart under canopy.
Maybe they will never be in the incidents form.
Hmm,
Maybe I'll just stay with my whimpy 1.15/1 wing loading for a couple hundred more jumps!
Yes, thats what I'm going to do. Theres just to many MAYBES up there!


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Feb 26, 2004, 8:28 AM
Post #21 of 93 (1819 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Fair enough. But, how can people on a website, knowing nothing about xx jumpers progression or the instruction at his dz, question his instructors ability to put him under an appropriate wing?

Angela.


Because I have been around the block a few more times than you have. I know what it is to instruct jumpers in canopy control and flying airplanes. Because I have experience doing this I know how humans react in flight training. And yes, they can most of the time handle more complex aircraft (read canopies) when everything is going normal. It's when they get in the corner for whatever reason (not just hook turns but long spots and such or out landings) that they get themselves hurt.

So do you want to make that newbie mistake that most people do in the beginning at 15 miles per hour or do you want to make that newbie mistake that most people do in the beginning at 60 miles per hour? One, you will walk away from likely. The other, you will probably get killed.

Roughly 9 years in this sport and I've seen a lot of 100 jump wonders. They were all convinced that they were "ahead" of the curve in canopy control. It's human nature. It's pilot nature. We need look no further than aircraft pilot training to see what humans do in the air. No need to reinvent the wheel in training. We do need to cover all aspects of how to fly each canopy. Yet, many DZs do not and if they have a fast downsize even from a student status canopy loaded at 1:1 going to 1.3:1 is a heafty change in my opinion. You can either listen to the voice of reason. Or you can dismiss me and find out the hard way. The choice is now yours.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 26, 2004, 8:28 AM
Post #22 of 93 (1818 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

Quote:
OMG!! 1.35, That thing is gonna kill him in his sleep for godsake!
---------------------------------------------

No, it's not. While this may not seem too extreme, and under good conditions, this canopy may work well for this jumper. The trouble is that under less than ideal conditions, it isn't leaving much room for making 'rookie mistakes'.

There is another thread gong about a jumper with twice the jumps of the one in question, and juping around the same WL. She made a 'rookie mistake' is is now in the hospital with some serious injuries. Bad things can and will happen, and the smart move is to plan for the worst, and be ready for it when it comes.

One point that I think people who post online are missing is that the injuries sustained from a bad landing can be severe and life changing. While seems like another annoying post to the masses, there is someone out there who's life may be on the verge of a major and disturbing change. Some people do recover, and can resume thier lives after a peroid of time. But others have to change their outlook of the rest of thier lives. A person in thier twenties who will never walk again or who will walk, but never run, or participate in a physical activities has go to be hurting physically and emotionally. What if this person made their living in a physical job? What now? Or had a family to support?

It's just something to think about. Making mistakes in skydiving can be very final and permanent. Trying to prevent those mistakes is all we can do.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 26, 2004, 8:45 AM
Post #23 of 93 (1793 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

>I don't see the point of this post I guess. To start a flame fest?

To look at it in a negative light, all this will do is start an argument with the jumper in question saying "am so a good pilot" and other people saying "are not." But on the other hand it's too late after the jumper's been injured or killed, and that happens with monotonous regularity. It's always better if the people talking have actually seen each other jump, but sometimes thirdhand advice is better than no advice.

I think it depends on the situation and what the jumper tells us of his skills. Based purely on jump #'s and wing loading it's hard to make any suggestions, but if I hear something like "I have 50 jumps, am loading a canopy at 1.5 to 1 and can stand it up 3 times out of 4, so I'm going to downsize" then it's easier to make recommendations.


Ron

Feb 26, 2004, 8:50 AM
Post #24 of 93 (1786 views)
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     Re: [diverdriver] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

Chris,

Care to share some stories along the lines of the Bonanza V-35, AKA "The Dr. killer"?

Not to you Chris:

The FAA has seen fit to not allow a new pilot to just jump into a high performance or complex plane without more instruction. There is a reason. Pilots want the coolest neatest thing..So folks that can afford them often get more plane than they know how to handle.

Even when they get the sign off. In Good conditions most pilots can handle it. But when something goes wrong...It often leads to disaster.

This same thing is happening with canopies and newer skydivers.

They want the cool toys so they buy them. They MIGHT be able to handle them in good conditions, but as soon as it hits the fan...They end up broken or dead.

The biggest voice on this thread for letting folks do what they want has <200 jumps and has been kicked off of one DZ for canopy control aready, and banned from another.

The biggest voices on this thread saying it is a bad idea to jump a 1.35 at 50 jumps are instructors and FLIGHT instructors each with several hundered to several thousand jumps, and several years in the sport.

Who would you listen to? The guy with 200 jumps with a dubious history of canopy flight....Or the folks with several thousand jumps and instructor ratings?

Im gonna go with the second group....Call me crazy.

Edit to change Aircaft ID...I flew the damn thing you would think I would remember it. A36 is the normal tail.


(This post was edited by Ron on Feb 26, 2004, 9:44 AM)


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Feb 26, 2004, 9:07 AM
Post #25 of 93 (1767 views)
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     Re: [Ron] Low Jumps...High W/L AGAIN!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Chris,

Care to share some stories along the lines of the Bonanza A-36, AKA "The Dr. killer"?


Actually, it was the "V" tail Beech 35 that was called the "V Tail Doctor Killer". It was the latest and greatest in personal aircraft. It had all the bells and whistles that a cockpit panel could hold. Now, who can afford such a craft? Many were doctors (lawyers too). Doctors tend to have a "God complex" meaning they have achieved a certain level of status and respect in the community being that they know so much about the human body and heeling. This flying stuff is just kids play. Well, many, many Doctors (and their families) learned the hard way and were killed. The aircraft was just too much for their skill level. Now granted, had they taken more lessons or had a different mind set about flying it they might have done better. But the training in those times did not seem to keep up with the complexity of the situation.

And that is what we are talking about here. Not calling any jumper stupid or unable to learn. But their has to be a natural flow to the progression. Taking large leaps in downsizing / changing wing planform will likely put you in the corner. Since several DZs have banned this person they have given up on teaching. It seems they no longer feel this person is listening to what they have to say on the subject so they are limiting their liability. Now, more than ever, is when that jumper needs to have instruction on what to do and when. But, if they are hell bent on not listening, there would be a point where I'd walk away too and say "If you're gonna be stupid you better be tough."

I see railroad tracks. I hear the horn of the train. My friend stands on the track. I know the train can not go around or stop before hitting my friend. I will ask my friend to step off the tracks. I will then plead with my friend to step off the tracks. I will consider diving and knocking my friend off the tracks. But in the end, I may have to turn away and not watch my friend be run over by the train that approaches. How do I know there is a train and a set of tracks? Cuz I've been there before. Seen it. Heard it. I am trying to give you the benifit of my experience. Please listen.


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