Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
stilleto vs Cobalt

 


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Feb 23, 2002, 11:42 AM
Post #1 of 19 (1704 views)
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stilleto vs Cobalt Can't Post

   All things being equal, what will the stilleto do that a similarly configured cobalt can not do? And please don't say scare you. I am talking about quantifiable properties like soft openings, maintaining headings during opening. Airspeed, glide ratio, oversteer tendencies, Stability, recovery arc radius, turn-rate initially and well into a steep 360 on toggles and on risers.
Don't say Demo them because if I flew them I wouldn't be able to PUSH them enough to get those numbers.



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Feb 23, 2002, 12:14 PM
Post #2 of 19 (1695 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

IMHO most those numbers are left to the jumper. You can fly a Stiletto as fast or as slow as you want to. Either canopy can slam you at any time, any canopy can maintain heading during opening. A lot of these numbers are based on wing loading and pilot skill level. i.e. a more experienced jumper can counter steer the opening during the snivel while a newer jumper will not have the knowledge/skill/experience to countersteer.

I've jumped both, and have MY opinions, jump them both and form your own opinions. If you can't get the chance to, or don't have the skill level to jump these canopies, look at other canopies too. Stiletto's, Cobalts, Crossifres, Heatwaves and other similar class canopies are fun to fly in the hands of a good pilot. If you don't have the skill level to jump this level of canopy, look at Sabre2's, Safies, and other semi-ellipticals.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Feb 23, 2002, 7:17 PM
Post #3 of 19 (1660 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

So what you are saying is that they are the same? speed , glide turns etc, When the pilot is the same. Quantifiable figures remember. The reason I ask is that I can demo a great many cobalts ( and have sampled a few ), BUT I'm crazy if I look at a stilleto. Totally different beasts they say. Again What will the stilleto do that the cobalt can't? Same pilot, same day, same arena. I've heard there is a lot of similarities drawn between the crossfires and the cobalt. Heatwaves aren't that common round here.
And the discussion wasn't about my skill levels or opinions and the other fine canopies mentioned. I like all those mentioned . I just want to know why the stilleto is a monster and the cobalt less fearfull in other peoples eyes



Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 23, 2002, 7:25 PM
Post #4 of 19 (1657 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed. YOU need to form your own opinions. While I coudn't care less about Stilettos now, I did jump them for six years in sizes 107 and 97. I never had to chop one and never had one spin up more than a turn and a half. I never got spanked by the opening once and I never did anything special with the pack job. I swooped the absolute dogshit out of both of them and only stopped buying them after I jumped some other, more "high performance" mains which I liked better overall. That is not to say that I no longer consider the Stiletto a high performance main; quite the contrary. That main still kicks ass for people looking for a twitchy, fast main, yet still has a quite forgiving and tight recovery arc. The USAPT still jumps them, as does Airspeed. That should be proof enough that they are still holding their own. I now seriously dislike the fact that they have poor end-of-swoop stability and will bowtie on you much sooner than a Cobalt. I also am unimpressed by the surf distance I can get with a Stiletto compared to a Cobalt.

Now, if you are looking for a canopy you can load MUCH heavier without having it dump you on your ass, get a Cobalt. Likewise, it is MUCH easier to pack and is MUCH less likely to spin on you. It is also MUCH easier to get a long surf out of. The Cobalt flies and feels slower at the same wingload as a Stiletto but will surf out quite a bit farther without any crazy input. It has much more lift and is not "twitchy"; it will also not bowtie on you at sane wingloads. I load my 65 at 2.4 and my 75 at 2.23; I land both very safely. Try that wingload with a Stiletto and you are going to be a statistic.

Chuck



My webpage HERE


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Feb 23, 2002, 7:46 PM
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

Stilettos are made by a company you can actually get on the phone most days. When you leave a message at PD, they return your calls that day. With Cobalt, after leaving 3 voicemails on three different subjects, two of them were returned 5 days later. The third wasn't.

I didn't buy a Crossfire because of the way that Icarus handled the recall. I didn't buy a Cobalt because of their complete lack of customer service. I couldn't even get someone on the phone to send me a demo.

I never actually got a chance to jump the Cobalt, so I can't compare the two.

_Am

ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Feb 23, 2002, 7:51 PM
Post #6 of 19 (1647 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

IMHO... its no less of a beast then a Stiletto. The Stiletto is twitchier then a Cobalt and is a little less forgiving of misinput then a Cobalt. I jump a Cobalt, but that was before I sampled a few other canopies that I like better, but thats my opinion. Everyone has wants and expectiations out of thier canopy and the Cobalt met and exceded most of mine. I got one one too early (175 jumps) and with out enough skill to fly one to its potential. I'm going to something a little less in the proformance and building my skill level before coming back to something of it's skill level. Also every Cobalt I've jump has seemed totally different from the next one, but thats just IMHO.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


JJohnson  (D 22675)

Feb 24, 2002, 12:39 AM
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

I gotta disagree on the service issue. Just this week I called a few canopy mfgs. Cobalt (Dan) called me back within 2 hours. PD has yet to call me back. I've gotten great service from Icarus as well. As for Icarus recall on the Crossfire....I don't see how they screwed up. They stood behind the canopy. The admitted the mistake and corrected it to the best of their ability. I had one for a few months and really enjoyed it. Nice wing.

JJ



GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

Feb 25, 2002, 7:22 PM
Post #8 of 19 (1547 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

Ditto on that about customer service - I contacted them back in Decembre about snagging first, a 170, then a 150 to try out. They replied with 24 hours of any email I sent them, often times, during business hours, within an hour AND they were very accomdating.

Sadly, the individual who had the 170 was unexpectedly late in returning it - and it was too close to the end of the season to order a demo, so I put it off till the spring.

I think the best comment about the Stilleto I heard from one of the Team Funnel folk at SDC - along the lines of, "The Stilletto is a very good canopy but always respect it."



maretus  (D License)

Feb 26, 2002, 12:21 AM
Post #9 of 19 (1522 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt (little OT) [In reply to] Can't Post

GrumpySmurf wrote : "The Stilletto is a very good canopy but always respect it."

IMHO you should pay certain amount of respect to ANY canopy, not just Stiletto. Especially when talking about high performance, highly loaded, ellpiticals.



GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

Feb 26, 2002, 11:07 AM
Post #10 of 19 (1466 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt (little OT) [In reply to] Can't Post

Aye, that goes without saying.

We could take this to the point of saying, "Respect your Manta." I'm sure someone, somewhere face planted under a Manta from a low turn and didn't walk away.




geoff

Feb 26, 2002, 11:17 AM
Post #11 of 19 (1463 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt (little OT) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sure someone, somewhere face planted under a Manta from a low turn and didn't walk away.
well I knew a guy who was killed by a low turn on a Fury. Absolutely tragic.



DanG  (D 22351)

Feb 26, 2002, 2:58 PM
Post #12 of 19 (1433 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

At the risk of getting yelled at, I think it only fair that you (Chuck) mention that you are employed by Atair, the makers of the Cobalt, as a factory pilot. Some people who read these posts might not know that.

- Dan G



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Feb 26, 2002, 3:46 PM
Post #13 of 19 (1420 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

Kicker is... everything Chuck said is true.

But In the case of gear dealers/makers/employees/dzo's making a comment, Yes I do agree that they need to state that somewhere in thier post if they are going to comment on gear or DZ's.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 26, 2002, 4:49 PM
Post #14 of 19 (1407 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At the risk of getting yelled at, I think it only fair that you (Chuck) mention that you are employed by Atair, the makers of the Cobalt, as a factory pilot. Some people who read these posts might not know that.
Please get the facts straight: I am not an employee of Atair Aerodynamics. I still pay for my parachutes (though I do get a great discount). Atair is not a big company and as such only "gives" one guy a "full ride" as far as equipment goes; I am not that guy. I AM a member of the factory team, though, as are Bryan Harrel and Eric Butts. I get out and represent the product, which I chose after much comparison, on my own dime. Dan pays our entrance fees to the meets we compete in; he does not "pay" US anything. We were all chosen as factory pilots and offered the opportunity to test and compete with the new canopies after already buying Atair mains and jumping them on our own at our respective dropzones.

All that being said, make no mistake that anything I post to these forums is without bias. I have jumped and owned any and every parachute on the market that I wanted to or had interest in and have written reviews on each of them in the gear reviews of these forums. Feel free to check it out. I loved most of the mains that I owned and have written volumes on my experiences with them. One can simply do a search of any of these forums to see that I have much good to say about not only the Atair products I have owned and currently jump, but also plenty of the current competitors. I will give praise where it is due and call a spade a spade.

Chuck


My webpage HERE


MarcusV

Feb 27, 2002, 3:22 AM
Post #15 of 19 (1362 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Chuck really seems to be very fair, serious and trustworthy.

Dan Preston does not. He seems more like a cheap seller -who uses to lie to get products sold. His methods are amusing, not more.

Blues Marcus

--
Perfect speed, my son, is being there. - Jonathan Livingston Seagull


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Feb 27, 2002, 7:32 AM
Post #16 of 19 (1340 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

 Chucks reply is the kind I was asking for initially. A comparison, just the facts. To many dropzones are one brand only or a team is givin a free ride. Its hard to get a comparison if a hotshot has only flown what they were given for free. I personaly watched Chuck compete at Perris and his flying is due a great deal of respect. I think untill someone comes out with a hand held airspeed-vario- G meter that is accurate the debate will continue



DanG  (D 22351)

Feb 27, 2002, 2:44 PM
Post #17 of 19 (1291 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

Like I said, at the risk of getting yelled at. I just think people should be open with their affiliations. Thank you for clarifying your relationship with Atair.

Next time I'm in the market for a new canopy, I intend to demo a Cobalt among many other choices. For now, I am very pleased with my Stiletto, and would purchase one again without a second thought.

- Dan G



skymedic  (C 33561)

Feb 27, 2002, 3:36 PM
Post #18 of 19 (1281 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

DanG i think chuck has been everything and then some about being open and honest in his choices...to say that he hasn't been...well is just wrong...

marc
BSBD


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 27, 2002, 4:00 PM
Post #19 of 19 (1274 views)
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Re: stilleto vs Cobalt [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a big deal at all. I have certainly made my postion clear on any number of occasions in the past, but I guess someone who only recently starting lurking would know that. Perhaps I should attach a disclaimer to the bottom of every post.......NOT.Laugh

Chuck

My webpage HERE



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