Feb 16, 2004, 10:15 AM
Post #1 of 106
Javelin, Mirage, or Wings?
OK, broad question, but I'm new and was wondering if the community could shed some light. I need a rig and plan to buy one of the three. What are some experiences that people have had with them? I know they're probably all good, but what are your preferences? Thanks for the help!
For a first rig I would buy used. Javelin, Mirage, Wings, Infinity, Talon 2 , Vector 3's are all good rigs. I would be careful of anything older than 96. I believe some older ones may have soft housings for cut away and reserve cable plus l more velcro. The reason to buy used is you will start out with a much bigger main and down size later on. Most containers can move up one size and down one size from what they were designed for. By the way, you can go up one size but it will be very difficult to pack. Kirk
Feb 16, 2004, 10:45 AM
Post #6 of 106
Re: [nightjumps] Javelin, Mirage, or Wings?
[In reply to]
I've seen many a main pin cover flap on a Javelin flapping about in freefall. It's not a major issue for most, but if the job of the flap is to cover the pin...whereas on a mirage or wings, the flap tucks upwards into itself, making it more secure.
All good rigs. If this is your first and money is no problem then go ahead and buy new. I suggest that you look used though for a first rig. Look at it as the one to get you through the next year or two. You will gain a huge amount of experience in what you want and prefer and then be a a great position to get exactly what you need/want/desire and it will last you a longer time. I know a few people that bought new early only to be selling and buying again shortly afterwards (year or so) since they were able to find what the niche they wanted was, or the canopy choice changed to a smaller one, ect......
Note all the above thinking is based on a vague post about a rig. I just assumed it was a first rig. No info on your profile so you could have hundreds of jumps for all I know....
NOW if you looking from an experienced jumper POV, the ones noted are great rigs. Dont discount the Infinity as it is a great rig at a great price as well. Short lead time as well in comparison to some other manufacturers.
A mirage G4, with all the options, will cost you nearly twice as much as a similarly equipped wings. It's not twice as good. I think the wings looks better anyway. I wouldn't even consider a javelin right now because of the wait time and the fact that there's nothing so special about it.
Personally, I went with a vector3. It's the only rig that stands out from the rest, in my opinion.
WOW, I didn't even ask a question and you have helped me with my current dilemma. What to buy!?! I'm looking to purchase some gear of my own as well... SO, if anyone knows of a used Spectre 150 or Sabre2 150 for sale... let me know. I've already posted in the classifieds... no luck yet .
I do not think you can go wrong with any of them. If you are purchasing a first rig i would try to buy a used one. if you need to purchase a new one then i would suggest a Wings or an Infinity because of the low price. you will end up selling it in a year or 2 any way.
Feb 16, 2004, 2:58 PM
Post #19 of 106
Re: [pilotdave] Javelin, Mirage, or Wings?
[In reply to]
Well Dave, all personal opinions aside, as one example of Mirage vs a wings container. The wings has a stitch count of 5 per inch where Mirage has 12 per inch. Also Mirage uses a 40lb reserve spring where wings uses a 25lb. Seems there is more cost in manufacturing which would make the rig more expensive. The fact is we use more flaps, more cordura, more stitching, more parts, higher quality hardware, stronger stiffening plastics, secured cable housings topped with cast stainless end fittings as opposed to the wings. And i do not mean any disrespect to Henry or any of his people. Beleive it or not, profit margins are less than you think in this industry and we don't come up with the price of our rig because we want to gouge the skydiving public. The pricing is based on us being able to purchase the higher quality of materials, and keep a profit margin that allows us to keep the doors open. Could we offer rigs for cheap? Sure we could but at what cost? And to who? Would you feel comfortable jumping your Vector which is a great rig knowing that they lessened their stitch count or removed your secondary riser covers so the rig could be less expensive especially when the container system has to work 100% of the time? Well i guess you would make that decision for yourself. If you are ever in Deland and would like to get a tour here, you might have a better idea on what i mean. Oh yes and last time i checked the ODyssey was 1899 and the V-3 was 1716 + options. TheG-4 1849 and G-3 1649 + options. JT
Would you feel comfortable jumping your Vector which is a great rig knowing that they lessened their stitch count or removed your secondary riser covers so the rig could be less expensive especially when the container system has to work 100% of the time?
So your saying that my wings is less safe than your mirage?? yeah right...the context of your sentence points directly at that.
Feb 16, 2004, 3:09 PM
Post #21 of 106
Re: [skymedic] Javelin, Mirage, or Wings?
[In reply to]
No, not less safe. They have a TSO process like we all do. But the fact is that they use less stitching in the rig. My point is that there are reasons why some products are more expensive than others. JT
Feb 16, 2004, 3:36 PM
Post #23 of 106
Re: [skymedic] Javelin, Mirage, or Wings?
[In reply to]
In reply to:
that is not what you said...
you said that since you guys use more expensive hardware and materials your rig will work 100% of the time...infering that the wings due to it using less expensive materials will not.
WOW, I was kinda reading the post and going "did he say what I think he said??" There is no question that is how [dinog3]'s post reads no matter how much the follow up post infers "but that is not what I meant". Not only was that a slam at the wings system but you went on to specifically point out problems as you see it in your evaulation on the Wings container.
I think the Mirage is a great rig and is very nice. That said I would like to believe that the statment [dinog3] made was worded inadvertantly becuse it sure sounded like a very harsh and very specific backhanded slam at the Wings system. Even if it was not meant that way, for a post that clearly shows a competitive business interest in one system over the other, that was not a cool way to word it.. Pointing out your feeling that the mirage is a better rig and that the lack of flaps and secondary riser covers I think may be valid to point out in a feature difference comparison, but to infer it will not work or that you may need to have doubt about the 100% security of a TSO'ed wings rig compared to a Mirage is VERY UN-COOL
Again, did I really read what I think I did??
edited to clean up a couple of things, content stayed the same
(This post was edited by sdctlc on Feb 16, 2004, 3:48 PM)
But the fact is that they use less stitching in the rig.
especially when the container system has to work 100% of the time? Well i guess you would make that decision for yourself.
So, if a rig is TSO'ed, why would you imply that the Wings is unsafe and may fail?
That has to be the lowest of the low I've seen from a gear manufacture in a VERY long time...actually, that IS the lowest of the low I've ever seen from a gear manufacture. Even Bill Booth will say someone else's rig is a good rig, but he will give you reasons why he thinks his rig is better (or has added safety features such as his Sigma). He posts here and I've never seen him single out a company and imply that their container/harness is unsafe, just as you have done.
That attitude alone makes me take a stance now, that I will never purchase a Mirage and will tell other jumpers about the company's attitude when they ask me about gear!
(This post was edited by AggieDave on Feb 16, 2004, 4:03 PM)
Another example of a Wings vs Mirage container is the webbing. Mirage uses combinations of type 8 (3500 lb.) and 7 (6500 lb.) or just type 8. Wings uses type 7 all the way through. Mirage probably needs a heavier stitch count for the lighter, cheaper material used in the harness. An articulated G4 with chest rings is all type 8(3500 lb.) webbing...
Concerning the p/c spring, The Mirage has to travel through 4 flaps with its 40 lb spring. the Wings has to travel through 2. Once the p/c has cleared the wings is about 80% f-111 and 20% mesh. The Mirage is about 50/50 of each. So, I like the the actually deployment force of the Wings with more material.
Also I am not that excited about secondary riser covers. I find if the design is good enough with primary ones, why add extra material to restrict the risers during deployment and increase chances of inducing line twists?
The point is, both are great rigs and one is not noticably more functional than the other as the marketing rhetoric can go both ways. As a rigger I am pretty impressed with craftmanship and ingenuity of both companies. However, I like the Wings for the durable harness and price.