Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY!

 

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rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:16 PM
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Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! Can't Post

O.k. swoopers, canopy nazzi's and safety gods.. Give this one a try..

What would you do?

You are planing out on your swoop doing 60 miles an hour and a child runs out in front of your path with a mother close behind the child.. You have a millisecond to react. What do you do?

Do you shut the canopy down? IF SO HOW?

What would you do? Let's say you ate hitting a fx at 1.9..

What would you do?

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


MrHixxx  (D 24144)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:23 PM
Post #2 of 27 (2506 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, having a child of my own I pretty sensitive on this issue. I would definately carve towards the softest spot on the mom...

xxx, Hixxx

"Sus ma tub, Dr. Suess ma tub" Crazy


SBS  (D License)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:23 PM
Post #3 of 27 (2504 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

You shoot the hostage.



rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:26 PM
Post #4 of 27 (2498 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL



Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:26 PM
Post #5 of 27 (2498 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

What's a child doing in the landing area?

And if you're not in the landing area, why are you showing off in an area where there might be children and mad mothers?

pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?


rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:28 PM
Post #6 of 27 (2494 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

NOW, NOW Skybitch.... People lose track of their kids all the time.. Answer the question :) People swoop along the roped line all the time.

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


SBS  (D License)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:30 PM
Post #7 of 27 (2491 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously, though, it completely depends on the whole situation. It depends on if there are outs to either side, where you are in your swoop, how far away the child is, how tall the child is, how fast they are running, how close the mom is, etc. You could pop up and over the kid, weave the entire canopy around, throw your body around while still flying the same path, go between the two, if they are far enough apart, etc. etc. etc. There are a lot of considerations to be made in that millisecond that you have, so that the least amount of damage is done to you or either of them. Worst case, you kick the kid in the head...he shouldn't have been in the middle of the landing area. :-)

Blue Ones,

Steve




Premier skybytch  (D License)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:31 PM
Post #8 of 27 (2487 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

It won't happen to me. First off, I jump primarily at Perris where the landing area is on the other side of the runway; any kid gets out there, the parent needs a swift kick or two imho. Second, I don't fly that kind of wingloading. Tongue

pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?


rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:35 PM
Post #9 of 27 (2481 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand what you are saying.. What I am trying to find here from the high performance canopy fliers is how would you shut that canopy down at that speed without popping back into the air and landing on your face in a dive?

The out is to the right where the kid is running.. Their is a roped off fence to the left. You are planed out so at max speed you have 50 or so feet??

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


MrHixxx  (D 24144)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:37 PM
Post #10 of 27 (2481 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. There are many things to consider. How many points you score for which one you hit, the possible bonus points availabe (knocking them out of their shoes or getting mom's bikini top without hitting her)...

But really, I would probably pop over them flare it out out high and PLF. I like my options plopping down after a high flare with the forward momentum gone as opposed to eating it in a high speed carve...

-Hixxx

"Sus ma tub, Dr. Suess ma tub" Crazy


rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:40 PM
Post #11 of 27 (2476 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess if you are flying a crossbraced canopy you might even have enough energy left to finish the flight and not biff.. There is a video on Icarus web site that shoes a pond swoop the guy flies it up and has enough energy to finish at the end of the pond swoop..

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


SBS  (D License)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:43 PM
Post #12 of 27 (2473 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree...I would rather suck up my legs and pop up than try to carve hard enough to make it all the way around the kid. Again, if the kid is small, you wouldn't have to pop up too incredibly high, and may not even cause a bad landing, just a skip or two in the heartbeat. In all likelyhood, if you carved too hard, too quickly, you may slide out and still hit him anyway. That is where the timing comes in, how much time you have, and where you are in the swoop.

Steve






Hooknswoop  (D License)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:46 PM
Post #13 of 27 (2470 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

If I couldn't carve away I would pop up enough to clear over them. If they were very close, I would pop up hard and yell "Call 911" because I am probably going to get hurt. If I could still walk afterwords, I would scream at the mother until horse, or her hair came off, whichever comes first. I think the landing area is no different than a freeway, who's fault would it be if an unsupervised child ran out onto I-5 in California and was hit by a car?

Hook



rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:49 PM
Post #14 of 27 (2465 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hook, I've seen you do it.. At the pond remember :) When you took out the electrical box and the garbage can at 60 miles an hour.. That was pretty impressive..

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:54 PM
Post #15 of 27 (2461 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

And still stood it up, damn kids:-). Swoop pond or not, I shouldn't have gone over there w/ kids around.

Hook



rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:57 PM
Post #16 of 27 (2457 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

You left yourself an out.. You took it.. You planned ahead of time.. Like I said laying face up in the pond it looked damned cool!!! That damned VX60 looks like a small umbrella at 90 miles an hour!! lol

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


lazerq3  (C -34113)

Feb 20, 2002, 4:13 PM
Post #17 of 27 (2447 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm no where near flying that W/Ling or swooping ,but if I was in that position, even though the kid is in the wrong I'd probalbly do whatever I could to avoid him/her, even if it meant a trip to the hospital for me. I'm not trying to sound like a hero or anything , but after having a little girl I get pretty upset when I see a little kid hurt even if it was something they caused because they were too little to understand. I just dont think I could handle knowing I took out a kid !!! Of coarse if I could still talk I'd have one out with the parents!!!!

jason



rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 4:15 PM
Post #18 of 27 (2445 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Being a parent myself.. I would bit the big one before I'd hurt a kid.. I would put my feet out in front of me though and maybe pummel the mom?? I'd try not to BUT??

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Feb 20, 2002, 4:28 PM
Post #19 of 27 (2439 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Simple... you sarcifice your body for the saftey of others. Don't think of it as just a child running in your way, you should be able to see the landing area during the carve and be landing farther then any child could hope to run in 5 seconds away from any one else. Think of it as another jumper makes an unconventinal landing, ie crosswind, down wind, whatever... Do everything in your power to avoid them. It's your responcibility to leave your self outs and the ability to use those outs. If your only outs are 10 feet on each side during a hook..... simply if you can't carve instantly there, you don't need to be carving/landing it there in the first place. (i.e. beerline, swoop ponds, demos)

Sometimes the price you pay for some fun are injuries or death....

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


Sebazz1  (D 23382)

Feb 20, 2002, 4:30 PM
Post #20 of 27 (2438 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you snatch the kid up as you swoop by and take him for a ride............J/K
I would just flare and try to pop up. Though that would hurt yuo more in the long run. Your safest bet for your self is to just tag the kid.......Tongue


CoolSebCool


alan  (D 17868)

Feb 20, 2002, 4:32 PM
Post #21 of 27 (2434 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

I would NOT try shutting it down under the circumstances you describe. The answer is very simple and pretty safe if you have been working on your canopy skills. They even have an event in some of the swooping meets that allows canopy pilots to demonstrate the skill needed for just this circumstance. All you need to do is bump the toggles enough to pitch the canopy up and climb 7 or 8 feet, fly over the top of the mother and child, ease up on the toggles and let the canopy resume its' decent into ground effect, resuming your surf. You will have lost considerable (and valuable) airspeed that will will need to convert into lift for a proper flare, so the landing won't be as pretty as you may have been hoping for, but with smooth, unpanicked inputs, you should be able to slide it out. This skill doesn't have to be limited to to a highly loaded x-braced canopy. Years ago, there used to an ad in Parachutist for a certain popular canopy featuring Charlie Mullins at about age 16, if my memory is correct, quoting him as saying; "No ditch to deep, no fence too high."

I occassionally practice this at the DZ. Gives everyone a laugh and the opportunity to snicker about how Al just screwed up a landing really bad. It saved my life last summer when one of our pilots didn't see me and turned off the runway in front of me. I was on an 89 VX at over 2.4 and doing closer to 70 mph near the bottom of my recivery arc and headed into the propwash of a C182. I popped up to about 15 or 20 feet, flew over the propwash and did a slide, stumble, run, stumble landing, but walked away from it.

Another option is a carving turn in the swoop. With a little practice this can be done safely as well and is often demonstrated during the Pro swoop meets. On an FX at 1.9 you might just have to apply a little brakes and shift in the harness. You can also do a flaring, flat or braked turn using just the toggles. It doesn't hurt to be good at this kind of stuff, no matter what type of canopy you fly or what the wing loading is. Kids can run out in front of big, slow canopies at the last instant as well.

Of course, there will be times when there is just simply nothing you can do. You can be driving down the highway at 60 mph when suddenly a child runs out. Sometimes there is time to swerve away, slow down enough ,or even stop. Sometimes there is not. The same is true with your scenario. There are a multitude of variables involved. Pilot skill. Pilot reaction time. Reaction time available. Canopy performance. Etc. etc. The FX at 1.9 is going to give you the speed that may take away from how long the pilot has to react, but it may also provide the performance needed to successfully perform an avoidance maneuver. It helps if the pilot has the skill, knowledge, training, practice, and experience to pull it off. Know your canopy and be a good pilot. 1000 landings under a canopy won't give you the skills you need if the last 900 are just a repeat of the first 100. I hope this helps.

alan


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 20, 2002, 4:33 PM
Post #22 of 27 (2432 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

I would go up and over if it was a smallish child. No problem at all if you have a decent technique for the backside of that maneuver. If there is any wind at all, I can pop up about 10 feet then crank up and down on the control lines, thus sinking me straight down without surging or stalling straight back. Given an out left or right and over a second of leadtime, though, and I will probably lay over a very sharp carve. I would never do this if I could not "beat" the kid around the corner with my body. Catching someone with your canopy lines at 60 mph in a carve is very ugly. Anyone at the PPPB meet at Perris last November who saw that dude standing in the course when I came through can attest to the damage it does. I would not like to ever repeat that move again, especially not with a kid.

Chuck

My webpage HERE


rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 7:16 PM
Post #23 of 27 (2403 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the input.. This is good stuff..

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 20, 2002, 8:23 PM
Post #24 of 27 (2389 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not a swooper (yet), but that was an interesting thread. Learned a little about what-ifs even with a *normally* loaded canopy. Smile

"I'll take Famous Titties for 400..."


rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 9:59 PM
Post #25 of 27 (2375 views)
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Re: Shutting down a canopy loaded above 1.7 EMERGENCY! [In reply to] Can't Post

Good info.. Definately.. I am not a swooper yet either but I would like to be MENTALLY be there before I start actually turn and burning..

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


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