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Tandem person shooting their own video?

 

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tandemking  (D 16806)

Feb 12, 2004, 2:18 PM
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Tandem person shooting their own video? Can't Post

I know some DZ's are doing it, but where is the camera on the dive. I certainly wouldn't want one on my head during a tandem opening or malfunction.
Also, what is the charge for the tandem person to shoot their own video? Is it the same as taking a camera flyer on the dive?? Also, how good is the quality with the lipstick cameras?

Larry D-16806


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Feb 12, 2004, 2:37 PM
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Re: [tandemking] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Search for Glove mount cameras. There are a few people that make them here like Riggerrob. The Camera is on the back of the left hand so that when the TM is in the boxman the camera points at the Tandem, but it leavesthe hands free to pull the handles and land.

Most places are doing for half the price of a regular flyer, but now you've got to have the TM edit the video or have someone do that too. Its got unique angles, but its a lot of personal preference on if someone likes it or not.


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 12, 2004, 2:48 PM
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Re: [tandemking] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's been pretty much dubbed "handycam". Yeah, you get some unique angles, and the whole canopy flight, but that's about it. You can't get stills like you can from outside video. Pros-you get paid a lot more, at least we do out here. Cons-it can be fucking scarry. To do good vid, you really have to fly without that hand, and as you know, sometimes you REALLLY need all 4 appendages just to keep the pair flying straight. It looks as though it's gonna be the "new" thing coming, and a lot of DZ's are gonna start offering it, mainly because they can charge less, and not give up another slot on the plane. I've been doing them for about 4 months (250+ handy's) and I still don't like...but I do like the $$$$$$$$$$


tonyhays  (D 26336)

Feb 12, 2004, 6:41 PM
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Re: [tandemking] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Another con...outside video looks better for flips out the door and 360's; doesn't look near as cool with the handycam. Plus, if the student decides to make things difficult, the video will turn out badly.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Feb 12, 2004, 6:43 PM
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Re: [tandemking] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Interesting concept and sure it CAN be effective given all the best conditions...although the work load for the Tandem master is surely increased....
In no way,,, however, would I want to see the camera mounted anywhere ON the students themselves..... Too distracting,,,, too unlikely to result in acceptable freefall footage,,,, and far Far to likely a serious liability exposure for the dropzone and it's staff.......
Since I work part time as a freefalll cameraperson,,, I think tandems should continue to be threesomes....Laugh..
Plus... I have always held the opinion that the camera person absolutely serves as a "monitor/lifeguard".... on EVERY tandem they film,,, and can be something of a help to the TM in the event of a spin,,, or a drougue/bridle hangup,,, or any another equipment problem..Unsure
A number of times,, i have moved in on a tandem that has done more 360's than they would like... and planted a hand on the TM's leg to stop a spin....
Another time,,, the Tandem was in drougue fall at 10,000 feet,, when the container somehow opened,
and the main bag got out...Shocked... The 3 ring holding the drougue bridle was still connected,,Unsure Shocked Pirate ,,, and the bag was bouncing around and lines were unstowing... The TM AND the student were UNaware of the situation,, until I swooped them,,,, pointed repeatedly at the TM... with my left hand and Simulated a pull with my right hand,,,,rather agressively....He got the message,,, pulled around 8 grand,, ( the main had not YET gotten out of the d-bag ) and got an acceptable opening,,,, save some bigtime linetwists... No camera man on the dive,,, and they likely ride that mess to 5,500,,, UNLESS the locking stows of the main bag come undone first......
I'm all for creative use of cameras, but lets supply the necessary personnel to do it safely...Wink


tandemking  (D 16806)

Feb 12, 2004, 9:32 PM
Post #6 of 42 (1866 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the input. I've done 2500 tandems and 500 videos so I know the pros and cons pretty well and have seen my share of wild stuff from BOTH sides of the lense. I operate a small DZ with a
C-182 and there are no local cameramen who can help out on weekdays in the summertime. This may be a way for me to make a few more dollars but I'm not sure I want to sacrifice my feeling of safety for the bucks. Gotta sleep on this one a while and maybe hear some more opinions. Take care, jump safely!

Larry D-16806
www.tandem-skydive.com


SkydiveMO  (D 21338)

Feb 13, 2004, 6:53 AM
Post #7 of 42 (1816 views)
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Re: [tandemking] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the tandem manufactures stand on tandem masters shooting their own video? Does anyone know? I would think it would fit into the same kind of category as static-line jumpmasters also piloting the jump aircraft (no longer allowed). It can be done, but should it?


(This post was edited by SkydiveMO on Feb 13, 2004, 6:55 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 13, 2004, 8:16 AM
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

When I showed one of my hand mounts to Bill Booth, he said: "Cool!"
The next month Ted Strong called to order a hand-mount from me. Ted mainly uses his hand-mount to film test drops, but he has no objection to tandem instructors wearing them.


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 13, 2004, 8:21 AM
Post #9 of 42 (1789 views)
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Re: [tandemking] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's the post I made in S&T about the same topic.




I've got about 250 tandems, my training has been the best around and I'm jumping the best gear available, so a lot of the variables are gone.

However.

There's no way in hell I'd even bother with shooting the video myself. Not now, not at any time I could see in the future.

For one, I think the student deserves the best quality they can get, and for me, that means the guy on the DZ with the most skill, with a top notch video and a top notch digital SLR (for instance Cannon D10) for stills. That does not mean some monkeyfucked contraption that I use to video the jump off my hand (sorry Rob, I know you make a version of the Handycam).

Also, I think about the times when things go wrong, I sure as hell wouldn't want something attatched to my hand while I'm trying to fix whatever had gone wrong. Specifically, I think about the side-spin I had, I sure as hell wouldn't have needed a camera on my hand after that fucknut student tried to kill the two of us.


diverds  (D 17797)

Feb 13, 2004, 10:37 AM
Post #10 of 42 (1765 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think tandems should continue to be threesomes....

[Bevis and Butthead Voice] Cool...he said threesomes...[/Bevis and Butthead Voice]

Really though, it does seem like a pretty shoddy way to do a video. It's like looking at someones inside rw footage(yawn)...boring. Outside camera looks so much better. I understand the handicam glove is more efficient, but it seems like a huge trade-off for the quality you're giving the customer.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Feb 13, 2004, 11:20 AM
Post #11 of 42 (1752 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


right on AggieDave !!!!... I like the wisdom with which you speak..Cool Smile
Quote:
.I sure as hell wouldn't have needed a camera on my hand after that fucknut student tried to kill the two of us.
.....hahahaha... classic!!!!.Cool.. But isn't that the very REASON that TM's make "all the BIG bucks " ?? Wink

Good points as well,, diverds,,,, regarding the "quality" of the video....probably not real good,,, at first..
. However, In a certain very few situations,, such as cessna DZs with only 6 or 8 students a day,,, only 3 or 4 TM's, and the ability to put two tandem pairs,, in the plane at a time..Unimpressed. I can see where... a "reduced price " video may be offered....Remember a good video must also include pre- boarding, take off, in cabin, and post landing footage....A good DZO with capable staff could likely arrange to have a "ground camera person".... not necessarily EVEN a jumper,,but a capable video person,,, who can man the camera while the TM is getting the student ready,,, can lurk the pair,, just like any freefall videographer would.. can ask some questions and get some responses.. and then can hand off the camera to the TM as the pair boards..... The Ground person is then "on the spot" upon landing,,, takes the camera FROM the TM,, and shoots some conventional ( or if you prefer..... non conventional SlyTongue ) post landing footage,,, and then heads off to dub the video....Then the TM doesn't have to deal with the camera till after they are seated in the plane.....and gets rid of it as soon as the canopy is on the ground..
The freefall footage might be acceptable......
......FOR SURE !!!!!! the canopy ride will be documented like NO freefall cameraman could possibly cover it..... and the 4 to 5 minute canopy ride would allow for 30 seconds to a minute of,,,,"semi scripted" interviewing,,, or comments,,, or panning of the view,,,, or hell even zooming to the ground,,, or to other canopies in flight..CoolSmile... Heck if we could rely on the students to "man the toggles" for half a minute or so,,,,, and if the "CamGlove" allows the TM to easily get to the viewfinder.....you can get pretty creative.. I bet with a bit of practice,,,, it could make for a unique tandem video.....
THEN... if the student really wants,,, and is willing to pay for a vidographer AS WELL... then everybody's
HAPPY !!!!!!Sly and you have many many editing possibilitiies......
" what are we makin' here??? A Hollywood Blockbuster ! or a skydiving Video???" Sly
" Hey can I get a dub of that?? " Cool Smile


diverds  (D 17797)

Feb 13, 2004, 12:33 PM
Post #12 of 42 (1743 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some of the shots you will NOT get with the handicam glove:

1) The cool exit shot of the pair doing a front flip with the airplane in the background.

2) Orbiting the drouge. This shot gives a great perspective of what is really happening. You get to see the tandem pair hanging out there in space with the ground below them. With the glove cam you may see the ground occasionally, but I doubt it will have the same effect.

3) The deployment shot. Nothing shows the speed as well as the tandem pair wizzing thru the frame at deployment.

4) The landing shot of the entire canopy decending and touching down.

I agree that there are some interesting possibilities and some unique angles with the handicam glove and if it was being used in addition to outside video I would say "great idea". But to use it as the only camera seems really cheap to me.


sabr190  (D 22931)

Feb 13, 2004, 12:34 PM
Post #13 of 42 (1742 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with AggieDave, I have about 300 tandems and see no need to complicate thing for me right now. I also agree that you probably don't get the same quality video. MHO


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 13, 2004, 2:22 PM
Post #14 of 42 (1727 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think about the side-spin I had, I sure as hell wouldn't have needed a camera on my hand after that fucknut student tried to kill the two of us.

Too funny. I had a sidespin with handy, and man, it was friggin hairy! Filmed the student pretty much the whole time, and she thought it was part of the ride. Sorta amusing after the fact. At the time I started handy, I had roughly 600 tandems. Adding the handy put me right back at number one, it was rough. It's DEFINETELY not for everyone. I'm much more at ease doing them now. As for the footage, you have to remember that you have a .3x lens on the camera, and the zoom is useless. You can pretty much get the whole student in frame, and get ground shots, and the drogue, and the plane....obviously the better you get at it, the easier it is.

Here are a few stills from the camera. I still agree that it is NOT as good as outside video.
Attachments: handy1.JPG (18.0 KB)
  handy2.JPG (16.3 KB)
  handy3.JPG (16.0 KB)


jeremyneas  (D 20133)

Feb 13, 2004, 2:53 PM
Post #15 of 42 (1719 views)
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Re: [tandemking] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

What a coooool idea. I've got 500 tandems and lookin to try something new for my students. R.Rob sent me a PM and now i'm psyched. When I can spare a few tid bits of change I'm ordering one.

Hey, what Wide Angle are you (people currently using them) using? And what camcorder?

Tooooo kooky

Oh and for all those people listing the goodies of outside cameramen, I can think of a few from the Handycam just fantasizing about it. (yes, i'm a freefall photographer too, readjust those panties!)

1. Very unique angle of the exit.
2. Post parachute opening interview (probably the best thing about it!
3. Video proof, in case any passenger claims some sort of sexual harrassment. (this could work against some TM's LOL)
4. A cheap way of getting video for those economically challenged (i'm thinking $25-$30 with edit), i'm sure we can relate

I'm sure there's more


clint  (D 20790)

Feb 13, 2004, 4:44 PM
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Re: [diverds] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

I like all the comments. An Aussie told me about it and everyone is using it over there. I agree that a personal videographer is much better but like the guy said. Small dz, and 2 tandems show up, and they want video but they also want to jump together.

IT happened to me last Tuesday. I think it's a great idea and it's going to catch on fast. Sure it's dangerous but you have a choice! I have 700 tandems and I haven't done one in 4 yrs but I just started my own dz and I have to do them. Right now I would not put a hand mounted camera on right now but those pictures that were posted. WOW!

They are ausome and just image how good they will be when you do 20 of them or so. Tandems make more money. You can offer a package of both handycam and personal videographer. You put the two sources together and you have the ultimate video.

I have over 3000 tandem videos and if of course you ask them if they want video and then if they say no, when your getting them geared up then you can ask them if you want the tandem master to wear it for half the cost?

It's like commision for the TM.
Rigger Rob, I would like to know more info on your setup. Email me at info@skydivemoab.com
Thanks,


dsbbreck  (D 23512)

Feb 13, 2004, 8:20 PM
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Re: [clint] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

To each thier own, but I'd hate to see DZ's requiring TM's do something like this. This would not be for everybody and I fear the idea of extra money would entice TM's to do something like this before they could really handle it.


dsbbreck  (D 23512)

Feb 13, 2004, 8:27 PM
Post #18 of 42 (1675 views)
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Re: [tonyhays] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Another con...outside video looks better for flips out the door and 360's; doesn't look near as cool with the handycam. Plus, if the student decides to make things difficult, the video will turn out badly.

On another note.. Straight from the SIMS

(3) Intentional back-to-earth or vertical orientations that cause tandem freefall speeds exceeding that of droguefall are prohibited.



This is not allowed at our DZ for this exact reason.


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 13, 2004, 10:20 PM
Post #19 of 42 (1666 views)
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Re: [dsbbreck] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This would not be for everybody and I fear the idea of extra money would entice TM's to do something like this before they could really handle it

I totaly agree! That's my fear also. You can see it now with people buying a camera and a helmet and they have very little jumps, or they are just plain scarry as it is. There should definitely be some serious requirements for a TM to be able to do them.

As for what we use here, we use the PC-9's, and they are inserted in the glove that goes on the left hand. The lens is a .3x, very wide angle, and low profile lens. If you have short arms, it sucks. You can't get as much in the vid. The tall guys with long ass arms have it made. We offer the video, and then pull stills off the video, and put them on a computer disc.


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 13, 2004, 11:57 PM
Post #20 of 42 (1647 views)
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Re: [dsbbreck] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
3) Intentional back-to-earth or vertical orientations that cause tandem freefall speeds exceeding that of droguefall are prohibited.

That's such a vague rule its not even funny. If I wanted to, under drogue fall, I could still reach speeds of close to 160mph (if not more) although I keep it about 120-125mph for the camera guy's sake, and even doing flips out the door I don't reach those speeds. All in all, its really a worthless rule and can be applied as wanted.


WayCool  (D License)

Feb 14, 2004, 7:05 AM
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Re: [jeremyneas] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are some good points made here on both sides of the equasion. One thing that is missed here is that the whole point of the video is for the customer to enjoy watching it and re-live there one time (mostly) jumping experience.
Most of the opinions here are based on the thoughts and views of experienced jumpers and whilst they are valid points in that context, they aren't looking from a customers point of view.

I believe that if a customer was unaware of the other video possibilities and received a good quality Hand-cam video from an experience operator they would be very happy with the product.
The USA will catch up with the progression of tandem Hand-cam video soon(Don't mean you guys in Las Vegas), that is for certain. There ARE many operators using this product effectively around the world and there HAVE been many thousands of tandem jumps made with them.
I have a customer who has made 2000+ jumps with a Way Cool HC Pro.
I hope that my customers would inform me of any major safety issues that occur or have occurred but in the last 2 years all the feedback has been positive.
There will always be a place for outside video, it is a great starting point and training ground for professional skydivers but Hand-Cam is coming, it is simply a matter of progress and economics.
There are some photo galleries and more information on my website for those interested http://www.waycool.com.au. We also have a new super wide and small lens on the way designed for this specific purpose it will also be very handy for AFF jumpmasters who would like to offer their students a little more in training aids.


(This post was edited by WayCool on Feb 14, 2004, 7:09 AM)


WayCool  (D License)

Feb 14, 2004, 7:57 AM
Post #22 of 42 (1631 views)
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Re: [dsbbreck] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here are some more positives:

No more customers who can't have video through lack of aircraft slots or staff.

Sell video to speculative customers who normally wouldn't have it and doesn't cost an extra slot!

Being used very successfully on full time Australian, Swiss, New Zealand and USA Drop Zones.

Great on BASE jumps too

Awesome opening shots

Cool canopy flight shots, Spirals etc.

Awesome audio Opening and canopy flight interview

Even gets screams on exit

It's possible to make an exellent video production with just the tandem master filming with practice and the use of super wide lenses.
Ok that enoughWink


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 14, 2004, 8:24 AM
Post #23 of 42 (1625 views)
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Re: [WayCool] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No more customers who can't have video through lack of aircraft slots or staff

That never happens. Sometimes we have a student that has to wait for a different load so we can get them video, but if they want it, they get it!

Quote:
Sell video to speculative customers who normally wouldn't have it and doesn't cost an extra slot!

If you're good at selling, then thats mostly a non-issue. Honestly, I really believe folks should get a video, I've yet to meet anyone who regreted getting video, although I know a lot of people that regretted NOT getting video.

Quote:
Being used very successfully on full time Australian, Swiss, New Zealand and USA Drop Zones.

So has many other things in skydiving in the past that ended up killing people or hurting people. I'm not saying that your product has done that, I just don't think its really a safe idea.

Quote:
Great on BASE jumps too

Ok, well, I wouldn't know, haven't done that yet.Tongue

Quote:
Awesome opening shots

Is an awsome shot worth lowering your safety margin? Nope. I've had a couple video guys want to do stuff that would have probably produced a cool shot, but it wasn't worth the extreme safety hazard it would have been getting it. I'm not taking a chance, not with MY student!

Quote:
Cool canopy flight shots, Spirals etc.
Awesome audio Opening and canopy flight interview

I don't doubt it, read the statement above though.

Quote:
Even gets screams on exit

So does normal video, who cares. Hell, I've got a good number of video with people screaming so loud the video guy's camera picks it up in freefall!

Quote:
It's possible to make an exellent video production with just the tandem master filming with practice and the use of super wide lenses.
Ok that enough

Still doesn't matter. Not with the added safety risk! Sure, it "usually" is fine and has been fine thus far. That does NOT give it a clear go on the standpoing of safety in my mind. Just because something hasn't happened, doesn't mean that something won't happen.

Think about what is involved. You're putting something rather large, comparatively, on your hand. What's the only thing you have to save your life with? Your hands.

Oh, how do you keep with the manufacture's and the USPA's guidelines of keeping hands out of areas infront of the student that the student could grab and still shoot the video?

Well, thanks for the advertisement; however, personally, as a TM, I don't feel the amount of added risk is worth the extra couple bucks. My student can get video and have a videographer jump with us, or they can have nothing but a fun memory.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 14, 2004, 10:21 AM
Post #24 of 42 (1614 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

So has many other things in skydiving in the past that ended up killing people or hurting people. I'm not saying that your product has done that, I just don't think its really a safe idea.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If you think handy-cam is such a dangerous idea, then please show us the fatality reports of all the TMs that have gone in since handy-cam was introduced three or four years ago.


efs4ever  (D 7014)

Feb 14, 2004, 11:09 AM
Post #25 of 42 (1608 views)
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Re: [tandemking] Tandem person shooting their own video? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK:

Here is a system I use for my "experienced" passenger. That is, I've not yet used it with a first timer. It's the top part of a Bogen mono pod with a safety strap attached. There's a grenade like cotter pin attached to the strap attachment for quick release.

On exit, I tell the passenger to keep the camera in tight to the chest. Previously, I had a side spin begin when the girl had her arms fully extended and was geeking the camera instead of arching. Scary, but interesting video.
Attachments: handheld mount A.JPG (47.9 KB)
  handheld mount B.JPG (47.1 KB)
  handheld mount C.JPG (55.4 KB)
  handheld mount D.jpg (46.9 KB)
  handheld mount E.JPG (55.2 KB)
  handheld mount F.JPG (44.0 KB)
  handheld mount G.JPG (47.4 KB)
  handheld mount H.jpg (51.6 KB)


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