Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
How to sink in a X-braced wing?

 

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Swoopthereitis

Feb 12, 2004, 10:27 AM
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How to sink in a X-braced wing? Can't Post

Hey everyone. I had a restless night last night and had a scenario pop in my head and thought what if? I would like to get some ideas and thoughts on it.

Ok, many of us have spent hundreds if not thousands of jumps honing in our swooping ability under our heavily loaded X-braced swoop machines. But do we ever practice having to land it in the P's if our life depended on it? I don't mean swoop to the P's I mean land in them.
Suppose you jumped at a new dz, got a bad spot, and then got stuck with line twists and found yourself at 1000ft or lower with no decent landing area in sight. Maybe youre over a city or sub-division with lots of houses, fences, hydro wires, and pools, ect. Or you are over a large wooded area with little or no clearings. Or you just came through some very low cloud and found your pilots GPS was way out of wack. Anyway you get the idea.
I know that we should never get our selves in this type of situation, but lets just say we had some really bad luck mad a bad decision or whatever and we find ourselves their. What would you do? Our canopies are designed to swoop and need 100's of feet to come to a stop. Is it possible to sink in an 80sq/ft canopy loaded at 2.2 or 2.4? I'm a little reluctant to try and this is why I'm asking the question. Also if there is any techniques or drills that I should be learning I would like to here about it.
So please share your thoughts, idea's and stories of similar situations. I like to think through and plan for even the least likely situations.
Blue Skies.


dsbbreck  (D 23512)

Feb 12, 2004, 11:13 AM
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Re: [Swoopthereitis] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just went cross braced last week, but I wouldn't try to sink in a cross braced canopy for fear of it stalling. Not a good situation low. If I found myself in a neighborhood situation I'd just do a conservative straight in approach and land on the 1st straight and long road I could find and freak out the neighborhood kids.


rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 12, 2004, 11:22 AM
Post #3 of 45 (2309 views)
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Re: [Swoopthereitis] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure it's possible.. You will always have the forward speed you talk about. That is where having the slow speed flight experience will save you. The first thing I always do on a new canopy ESPECIALLY a smaller one is spend TONS of time on slow speed flight. Flat turns, Sinking in. I am only loading my crossfire2 at 2.0 so I'm not flying a highly loaded crossbraced canopy. The best advice I can give is practice, practice, practice up high.. If you feel ballsy come into the p's in half brakes and plf on landing. That is an invaluable skill you will need if you are landing in the type of area in question..

Besides, if you put yourself in the position to begin with where you could even end up having to land in a tight spot you screwed up.. Preventive maintenance.. Pull higher..

I've only pulled under 3k once in the last year and it was a bad idea..

Be safe..

Blues..

Rhino
Attachments: carve.JPG (58.3 KB)


Spizzzarko

Feb 12, 2004, 11:22 AM
Post #4 of 45 (2309 views)
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Re: [Swoopthereitis] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

     Instead of sinking it in like a clasic accuracy approach, I would use a braked approach. If you have ever done or watched classic acc (trust me it's cooler than watching paint dry), you would see these guys and gals pounding in on a soft tuffet repeatedly. It gets slightly more exciting when someone misses the tuffet. As far as landing in a tight area with a small canopy, it requires a different skill than swooping. I would use a braked approach, but I think it would be hard to shut down all of your forward movement with a smaller canopy. Look at the design of a VX and compare it to a Para-Foil Classic ACc canopy. The foil has huge cells, and is shaped like a Twin otter wing. A VX has very narrow cells, and is likened to an F-15 wing. They both create lift, but one is made for high speed flight, and the other quits flying at a relativly slow air speed. So instead of "Sinking it in" I would practice braked approaches. The make of a good canopy pilot is one who can land in brakes in heavy traffic. As far as landing out in the situations you described, we all choose our poison with the canopy we fly.


Spizzzarko

Feb 12, 2004, 12:02 PM
Post #5 of 45 (2282 views)
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Re: [dsbbreck] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

You would be surprised at how slow you can fly your velocity. They create quite a bit of lift even in slow flight. Practice coming in at quarter brakes, and then to 50% brakes and flarring from there. I've landed my VX at 50% brakes. I still got a swoop out of it, but it shut down nicely, and didn't travel very far. It's just a different technique than what you are probably used to. Give it a try, you can only gain from the experience.


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Feb 12, 2004, 12:54 PM
Post #6 of 45 (2258 views)
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Re: [Swoopthereitis] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

i haven't been able to get mine to sink, but i can get it pretty slow, and yes i have practiced this before, and the landing kinda sucks, but it's something that you do have to consider.

the way i did it was a deep brake approach.

and the best way to keep yourself from this is look down, and don't jump through clouds, or if you do, pull high to make it back. but sometime you make a bad decision, and shit happens

later


Spizzzarko

Feb 12, 2004, 1:08 PM
Post #7 of 45 (2253 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

and the best way to keep yourself from this is look down, and don't jump through clouds, or if you do, pull high to make it back. but sometime you make a bad decision, and shit happens

Nicely put. It's nice as a video guy to get a spot warning from a tandem master. I also believe as an aff JM it's imparative to look down in the skydive to see where you are. As a JM or video guy it's un-acceptable to land off!


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Feb 12, 2004, 1:11 PM
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Re: [Spizzzarko] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As a JM or video guy it's un-acceptable to land off!


it's unacceptable for ANYONE to land off. i mean, we're all taught to look down when your getting your A license. and don't be skurred to tell the pilot his spot sucks and to turn around, you paid 20 bucks for a good skydive WITH a good spot damnit TongueLaugh

later


Spizzzarko

Feb 12, 2004, 1:44 PM
Post #9 of 45 (2233 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Damn the Pilots!!!


Yoshi  (D 26770)

Feb 12, 2004, 1:45 PM
Post #10 of 45 (2231 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Amen siterWink


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Feb 12, 2004, 1:46 PM
Post #11 of 45 (2229 views)
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Re: [Yoshi] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Amen siter


fuckin a god damn right Laugh

later


Spizzzarko

Feb 12, 2004, 2:10 PM
Post #12 of 45 (2212 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here at the USAF Academy we have to have a jumpmaster on every load who spots. I make the pilots go around if the spot isn't just perfect. It's kind of fun when they try to tell me the spot was good. "Ummm, Sir, I'm the one looking down here, and you were on the wrong side of the airfield, so let's just try that again... Ummm Yea, that would be great...."


prost  (D 24959)

Feb 12, 2004, 2:22 PM
Post #13 of 45 (2206 views)
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Re: [Spizzzarko] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

During my AFF cetification course I practiced accuracy with my fx. I landed in the peas so that I did not have to worry about getting a great flare but I was never slammed down hard even when flaring from half brakes. I think anyone with a crossbraced canopy whould practice this technique but I would recommend doing it over peas because there just isn't a lot of room for error.


twnsnd  (D 25389)

Feb 12, 2004, 3:10 PM
Post #14 of 45 (2190 views)
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Re: [Spizzzarko] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is the United States Air Force Academy Community Drop Zone still having that boogie. You know the one with free jumps, a fleet of 3 Otters, free rigging services, free video, free editing, free coaching, free beer, and prompt ambulance service. I can't wait.


Spizzzarko

Feb 12, 2004, 3:13 PM
Post #15 of 45 (2187 views)
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Re: [twnsnd] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure it is, for more info call (719)333-2349 and ask for Chad.


(This post was edited by Spizzzarko on Feb 12, 2004, 3:51 PM)


cheneyneel  (D 26207)

Feb 13, 2004, 12:11 PM
Post #16 of 45 (2056 views)
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Re: [Spizzzarko] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

How slow do you think that we can fly a crossbraced canopy?
and how slow depends on the turbulence in the airspace over where you want to land?

I know that most all of us have heard of someone flying their crossbraced too slow-too low- in turbulent areas (either behind a building like landing on a street) and the canopy collapsing becasue of lack of air pressure in the canopy from not enough foward movement (stalling).

As the previous question might should have went....How do you sink a crossbraced canopy down with out the needed forward speed in turbulent areas?
I know that I can bring my Velocity in on an open area slow as hell.. But what do you do in a situation where the wind is caos and rutters from trees and building are in effect????..(other than not jumping a bad spot).


(This post was edited by cheneyneel on Feb 13, 2004, 12:12 PM)


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

Feb 13, 2004, 3:04 PM
Post #17 of 45 (2013 views)
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Re: [Swoopthereitis] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember that the slower your airspeed, the more you will need to move the toggles in order to alter the pitch enough to level off. If you are going really slowly, it may never level off completely, but it's better than slamming into an object at high-speed.

Consider practicing high-speed level-flight turns in order to shorten your swoop distance. By carving the wing at a high angle of attack, you will induce more drag and therefore shorten your swoop distance. I call this the "Hockey Stop" technique. It is dangerous in the wrong hands, but has saved my butt many times. The best part is, you don't have to fly slowly on approach. Going slow on cross-braced canopies can be deadly in turbulence, as the aperature at the leading edge is so small and the pitch-stability so weak. Airspeed and positive "G" are the only things keeping the system intact. This becomes very salient stuff when considering an off-field landing in a turbulent area.

And there is no substitute for a good PLF technique, pulling high when necessary, and good spotting abilities to avoid such issues.

A good pilot has good skills.
A great one avoids being forced to use them.


(This post was edited by BrianSGermain on Feb 13, 2004, 3:04 PM)


cheneyneel  (D 26207)

Feb 14, 2004, 12:15 PM
Post #18 of 45 (1965 views)
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Re: [BrianSGermain] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Brian... I know the exact manuver that you are calling a "Hockey Stop". I have used the manuver in very tight landings (obstacles and traffic situations) and used very accurately...
The manuver answers my question about speed and possibilities of collapse in turbulent and tight areas and it makes much more sense than the way I was approaching tight landings for crassbraced..
Good job buddy!!!


Martini  (D 23756)

Feb 14, 2004, 1:03 PM
Post #19 of 45 (1959 views)
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Re: [BrianSGermain] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Brian, could you elaborate a little further on the hockey stop technique? I know how to do it on skates, skis and snowboard but don't get the canopy theory other than carves shortening swoop distance.


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

Feb 14, 2004, 4:15 PM
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Re: [Martini] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, I'll try to elaborate on the "hockey stop" landing technique.

(The following is an excerpt from my upcoming book: "The Parachute and its Pilot".)

The concept is to induce drag through angle of attack in order to arrest the surf distance.

There are a few aerodynamic principals that are essential to bring to the surface in order to truly get the idea.

1) As Roll angle increases, the canopy's lift vector tilts which reduces the amount of "net lift" that the canopy is producing. This is why a wing tends to loose altitude in a turn.

2) If the pitch angle is increased in conjunction with the roll, level flight can be attained given sufficient airspeed.

3) The higher pitch angle increases the magnitude of induced drag, which causes the wing to loose airspeed at a greater rate than a zero-roll angle landing.

4) The roll angle allows the pilot to increase the pitch in a shorter amount of time than during a wings-level landing without causing an increase in altitude.

In other words, by banking and braking at the same time, the wing will maintain roughly the same altitude while loosing airspeed quickly. This results in a shorter swoop for situations involving a smaller landing area.

For example, when I do football field demos, I often start my swoop near one endzone, favoring one side-line. If I were to let it fly across the field I would end up in or near the other end zone, which is dangerous and worse yet, not in front of the crowd. Instead of maintaining the heading, I carve the canopy when I get near the 50 yard line, and set it down on center field. By carving the canopy at a high angle of attack, I shorten my swoop dramatically. The overall distance can therefore be reduced by at least 40 percent.

I must refresh my previous statement that this is an advanced maneuver. With insufficient airspeed and/or an aggressive pitch increase, the canopy can stall during the bank maneuver. That could smart.

The keys to the maneuver are:
1) Carry airspeed into the maneuver and make a smooth, shallow entry into the swoop to reduce he chance of roll or pitch oscillations during the level-off phase.
2) Do not wait until the airspeed diminishes to begin the bank.
3) Be sure to be at "normal" surf distance from the ground when beginning the turn, as excessive altitude upon completion will result in a significant drop at the end.
4) Use both brakes to maintain altitude once the roll is initiated.
5) Use both toggles to lift yourself out of the bank.
6) Once the canopy has climbed a sufficient distance from the ground, smoothly level the roll angle to zero for the landing.

I hope this clarifies the maneuver for you. If you practice it enough up high, it may save your butt as effectively as it has mine.
+


(This post was edited by BrianSGermain on Feb 14, 2004, 4:18 PM)


prost  (D 24959)

Feb 14, 2004, 4:31 PM
Post #21 of 45 (1936 views)
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Re: [BrianSGermain] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

What is different in what you are describing and a carving swoop?


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

Feb 14, 2004, 4:53 PM
Post #22 of 45 (1934 views)
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Re: [prost] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

The difference is the context and thereby the intent. Using deep carve to arrest the swoop is a deliberate seeking of a high angle of attack, while a carve may involve a lower roll angle so as to maintain the swoop distance.

In other words, you wouldn't want to perform a shallow harness/rear riser carve in a backyard. The distinction, in short, is the goal of the maneuver.


Martini  (D 23756)

Feb 14, 2004, 6:18 PM
Post #23 of 45 (1925 views)
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Re: [BrianSGermain] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the neat explanation Brian. Understanding the physics will help me apply the theory. Clearly a maneuver to be practiced well before landing in a backyard especially controlling carving room and doing carves from a straight-in approach.


alan  (D 17868)

Feb 15, 2004, 11:22 PM
Post #24 of 45 (1857 views)
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Re: [rhino] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Preventive maintenance.. Pull higher..

How much higher? @4000'? @5000'? maybe @6000'?

What about anyone exiting after you? Can you expect them to open above you, when they are expecting you to open at 2500' to 3000'?

You like to open above 3000'. That is OK because you let people know and they plan accordingly. Planned higher opening altitudes are just great. Opening higher than planned because of a bad spot is inviting disaster.

I only mention it not because of what you said, but because it would be easy to misinterpret what you said.


alan  (D 17868)

Feb 15, 2004, 11:49 PM
Post #25 of 45 (1852 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] How to sink in a X-braced wing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
pull high to make it back

That used to be the standard practice and that advice is still given. One or two cessna DZ, 4 or 5 people on a plane all doing the same type of freefall, it should not present too much of a hazard if you all exit together.

Big DZ with Otters and Casas, etc., 20+ people exiting on the same jump run, mixed groups from solo novices to free flyers and wing suit flyers, I'd have to say that opening higher than what you planned is inviting disaster unless you are the last one/group out.

You are the first, second, or whatever group out. You notice a long spot. You dump at say, 5000'. The next group notices the spot as they get in the door and compensate by giving a quick 3 sec of separation instead of say 5 or 7. They were expecting you to open at say 2500', so they think that they are good opening at 3000' to help compensate.

Quote:
but sometime you make a bad decision, and shit happens

There are a lot of different kinds of bad decisions to make. Things have changed, maybe we should re-think some of the old standard practices to be more in tune with the conditions that are more common now.


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