Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Canopy suggestions?

 

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JJohnson  (D 22675)

Feb 19, 2002, 6:02 PM
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Canopy suggestions? Can't Post

I am looking at going to bit more performance of a canopy. Currently I jump a Safire 129. I'm not ready for the ultimate pocket rocket, but my considerations thus far are: Saber 2 which is probably damn close to what I have now, Niton which I know next to nothing about, Crossfire which I have jumped and do like except for what seems to be an cronic sniveling opening, and the Cobalt.
Any heads up on which canopy you all enjoy and why will be greatly appreciated.

Opening to me is important. It needs to be consistent, on heading, and not burn more than 1000 feet.
Performance is important.......not twitchy, stable in front riser input, not ground hungry, great flare even in straight approach. Front riser inputs should not require doing pull ups on the dive loops. Am I describing the perfect canopy yet?

JJ



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Feb 19, 2002, 6:29 PM
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Any of the canopies you mentioned will fit the bill. It all depends on your personal flare style, want of proformance and loading. The openings on all of those canoies should be no more then about 600 feet ACTUAL altitude. Percieved altitude burn is going to be higher on some of them.

Loading is going to be key here. The Safire 129 is actually like a PD 120 in terms of measured square fotage. Something to think about if you want to stay in the same proformace level.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Feb 19, 2002, 7:37 PM)


watcher  (D 24876)

Feb 19, 2002, 7:28 PM
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Well it depends on the Pilot chute cause i just got a new one, and i think my canopy (a Nitron 120 loaded at 1.6) prob opens in about 250-300 feet with a Psycho pack, but its not rough and it doesnt beat me, its just brisk and firm. For the most part its on heading within 45-90 degrees. Riser pressure is light but builds, keep it down and itll stay but let up out of the dive, itll have to level before you can take another front riser dive. In breaks its floaty, but drop those to full flight you are getting a huge speed increase and dropping alititude alot faster, i dont think it ground hungry like a seven cell, but a friend who was flying an 88 Nitron described it as ground hungry, but it has alot to do with wing loading, at 1.6 its gonna come down fast like just about any other canopy.

Jonathan
D-24876



JJohnson  (D 22675)

Feb 20, 2002, 9:12 AM
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I figured the Sabre 2 was about the same performance wise to the Safire, equally loaded. I was looking to get into the truly elliptical without going to the Tri-braced cutting edge monster. I'm all for progression, not perfection.
I am really leaning towards the Cobalt, but I am unfamiliar with the company and product. So I guess my concern is what it's flight characteristics are compared to the Nitron or say a Stilleto. If anyone has experience with Atair's quality and service.



skycat  (D 25740)

Feb 20, 2002, 10:09 AM
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Ummm.....have you actually jumped a crossfire??? I always have 700-1000 ft openings. Do I grab the handles, sometimes, not as much anymore since I'm used to it. How do I know, both my altimeter and my protrack agree, Yes I have watched my altimeter from when I throw out to when I'm under an open canopy more often than not it took about 800 ft. I'm still falling fast enough in my snivle that my protrack still picks it up as being in free fall. It opens so soft I barely feel myself falling into my leg straps the stand-up part is so slow.

I've jumped 2 crossfires one at 1.1:1 and one at 1.3:1, the 1.1:1 was averaging 1000 ft, ask anyone on a load with me who saw me snivle past them since I have a very flat track I always opened higher than them. Heck ask TequilaGirl, she thought I was going to chop, actually almost did it was to damn slow. I've had lots of people on the ground wonder when I'm going to chop doing hop-n-pops, it really is that slow. The new one is a little faster at about 800 ft. Of course maybe you are looking at different points when you say 600 ft, I'm looking at from throw out to under a good canopy. I don't know how many times my boyfriend would say damn that thing snivles I didn't think it would open. Yes I always dump by 3K cause of it, that way I'm in the saddle by 2, I've changed emergency altitudes cause of it, I've changed which canopy I will dump at what altitude during an aircraft emergency. I have jumped a cobalt and it opened much faster about 600 ft. I've jumped sabres one with a pocket slider, nice 700 ft openings, and one without about 400 ft openings, although that one did give me a 150 ft one once (no I didn't walk away un-injured).

Kelli



JJohnson  (D 22675)

Feb 20, 2002, 10:39 AM
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I demoed a Crossfire for a few months while waiting for my Safire, which came from Spain. I have had jumps where I threw out the pilot chute at 4K and was in the saddle by 2K. This was the worst example. I varied the pack job to where I would get a 6 second opening, but with the snivel I was still going through 1200 to 1500 feet by the time I was in the saddle.
I loved the canopy, it was a blast to fly. I weigh 165 without gear and the Crossfire was a 119, so that gives you a good idea of the wingloading.
If I had kept that canopy, or ordered one with the sme type of openings I was seriously considering taking a soup can to the slider, or a smaller slider to speed it up a touch.

JJ



skycat  (D 25740)

Feb 20, 2002, 10:43 AM
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yeah, I always pack trash, just clear the stablizers and stearing lines then give the nose a curtesy tuck pull the tail around and stick it in the bag.....I do everything I can to make her open faster. I'll avoid the soup can trick though, since there is always that one opening that I'll be glad she is a snively beast.



Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Feb 20, 2002, 10:46 AM
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Kelli....
We've gone over this issue with lots of people on and off here, but basically your altimeter is off the entire time in freefall and under canopy it catches back up.So when your Altimeter says 3000... you could really be between like 2850-2900 feet. If you under a full canopy at 2000 on the same altimeter, that means a 850 foot opening. Not uncommon, but still a long one. 5-600 feet seems to be the norm on most canopies. There are longer opening canopies out there, and by all accounts the Crossfire is one of them.
Viewing angle is also another factor, you need to look at the altimeter at the same exact angle under canopy as in freefall to have it be a true compairison of altitudes. Also, all canopies opening sequence is read as freefall by protracks in my experience.
People that say they have 1000 plus foot openings either A) are riding streamers that turn into a good canopy, or B) are using different terms for openings. Can you imagine looking up at a canopy thats sniveling for 4-8 seconds? Time it once a watch, 8 seconds is a long time... Thats a streamer to me....

The terms that I and lots of other people on here use are opening distance: the distance you fall from the moment the pilot chute reaches inflation untill the slider is 3/4 of the way down. While some people measure opening as the time and distance it takes for them to reach back, toss, and have the slider all the way down. Traveling at terminal during toss and with the Altimeter being off..... lots of little things lead to the difference between actual and percieved opening distance.



As for the issue of the Cobalts, do a search of the archive.

[Shameless Plug]Or if you want a Cobalt 150 used at a good price... look me in about 2 months[/shameless plug] Smile

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


skycat  (D 25740)

Feb 20, 2002, 10:59 AM
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Phree I'm not going to argue with you, you have your opinion and that is fine. But there is a HUGE difference between 600 and 1000 feet no matter how you look at an altimeter. Until you say you have atleast 20 jumps on a crossfire I will not agree with you on this point.

Kelli





wildblue  (D 26027)

Feb 20, 2002, 11:30 AM
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What Phree is saying is that between your altimeter telling you what your altitude was a second ago, and the time it takes your brain to register that number and deploy, and the angle that you look at the altimter (assuming it's analog, you can factor this out if using a digitude) you could be a second or two behind the 'actual' numbers. That will easily add 150 - 300 feet to what it's actually taking. Which means:

In reply to:
Yes I have watched my altimeter from when I throw out to when I'm under an open canopy more often than not it took about 800 ft.
That puts you right in the 600 ft range, like he said.

Never argue with stupid people.They just drag you down 2 their level & beat you with experience


skycat  (D 25740)

Feb 20, 2002, 12:11 PM
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I'm sticking with this, that it is way more than 600 ft, I've put over 100 jumps on them and when you are 90% of the time taking OVER "1000 ft" to open it doesn't matter how you tweak the numbers there is no way for it to take 600 ft. The last one was always 1200 ft which I put at 1000 cause I incorporated pilotchute hesitations, d-bag hesitations every hesitation you can think of....I actually got a new and bigger pilot chute cause I thought my old one wasn't lifting the bag....guess what no difference in openings. The new one is at 1000 ft, so I'm sticking with 800 ft. Hopefully it's still on Derek's jump-track where my protrack logged me at 100 mph under a snivling canopy for 1000 ft. Why do you think I dump in a full out track, no slowing down for me....on solo's I bascially just get on my belly and dump.

Jump one and as you pass all your friend who dumped lower than you under your snivler.....then tell me it only takes 600 ft.

BTW.....you guys are right about one thing though....altimeters are off, do not do hook turns by using your altimeter, there is video of a guy looking at his altimeter right before he hooks himself into the gound. Use you eyes, they are the best alti around... know what 3000 AGL looks like, know what 1000 AGL looks like know what 100 AGL looks like, know your canopies recovery arch. It just might save your life.



Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Feb 20, 2002, 12:40 PM
Post #12 of 28 (2614 views)
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When I put over 150 jumps on my Spectre, I SWORE that thing took over 1000 feet to open. Finally I jumped a camera with it, compaired the video, protrack log, and digital altimeter data.... I was more then shocked when I found out my 1000 foot openings were really only about 650-700 feet. The digitude really helped narrow some of the data down. Having it on video allowed me to sync it with the protrack data.In my snivel phase, I was doing about 65 mph for only about 2 seconds. That was about the average speed during the entire snivel phase of the canopy.

I need to redo this with my Cobalt, but based on what the Spectre was like, I'm saying the Cobalt opens in about 500-600 feet.

And I'd love to do this same thing with a Crossfire, but I'm not going to jump one untill I'm satisfied with the entire issue thing....

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


skycat  (D 25740)

Feb 20, 2002, 12:47 PM
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Actually I already jump a digitude, and I'm going to see if I can get a screen shot of the proof from my protrack.

Of course that does explain why I was confused as to why the angle I look at my altimeter would be off. It's digital doesn't matter if I put it on upside down it would say the same thing. Smile



(This post was edited by skycat on Feb 20, 2002, 12:48 PM)


wildblue  (D 26027)

Feb 20, 2002, 1:32 PM
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In reply to:
Of course that does explain why I was confused as to why the angle I look at my altimeter would be off. It's digital doesn't matter if I put it on upside down it would say the same thing.
Ah.. yes.. that would explain that part Laugh

When jumping your protrack for proof, get it in clean air. Inside or even on the side of your helmet isn't going to give you an accurate reading. Find someone with the little leg mount thingy and see if you can borrow it. That should get the reading at least closer to accurate.


Never argue with stupid people.They just drag you down 2 their level & beat you with experience


skycat  (D 25740)

Feb 20, 2002, 1:35 PM
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Actually I have a leg mount that I use for solos and hop and pops. My rigger/sweety made me one, and I can very easily pull up a solo jump.

So since I use the same kind of alti that you 2 are saying is correct, are you still going to say I'm off by 300 ft?



Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Feb 20, 2002, 2:06 PM
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You are probally getting close to 900 foot openings if you go by the terminalogy I used earlier. ie full inflated PC to Slider 3/4 down. If you wait untill slider is all the way down, then its any ones guess.

Hop and pops should'nt eat more altitude then full alti since you can use your forward motion to extract and start the opening sequence.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


skycat  (D 25740)

Feb 20, 2002, 2:12 PM
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No hop and pops don't, they just take longer. Which is the same reason I dump while still tracking, to give myself more foward than down during the opening.....There is nothing like watching your booties inflate infront of you just as you get in the saddle Tongue





indyz  (D 28525)

Feb 20, 2002, 2:15 PM
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They aren't saying that the alti is "correct," only that there are no parallax errors. A parallax error is caused by the angle that the user looks at the altimeter, not by any mechanical flaw. Staring at my Altimaster III from about a foot away, with the face of the dial perpendicular to my vision, it is centered on 500 feet. By turning it in my hand, I can get an apparent reading of anywhere between 200 and 800 feet. I'll admit, these are extreme, but if I read my altimeter tilted slightly down at pull time and slighty up after I'm under canopy, a 200 foot difference is easily possble.

--
Brian
Homepage
AIM: suprmath


rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 20, 2002, 3:28 PM
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Get a crossfire..

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 20, 2002, 4:38 PM
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Get a Cobalt. A stock Cobalt is just the canopy you are describing. Anything but a 105 and you will have butter openings, great lift, beautiful swoops, and easy packing.

Chuck

My webpage HERE


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Feb 20, 2002, 4:51 PM
Post #21 of 28 (2529 views)
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I'll toss my vote in for a Cobalt... all the things Chuck said, but before you buy ANYTHING call them and see how they treat you in terms of service. Some companies will answer the phone on the first ring and other take days to get back to you.

That being said, I hate to say I'm ditching my Cobalt since I've decided I don't need the proformance it has at this point after my injury.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


MrHixxx  (D 24144)

Feb 20, 2002, 5:17 PM
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I learned to swoop on a Cobalt 120 (1.8) after a Triathlon 160. Dan endured a shitload of newbie questions quite gracefully and had a gorgeous custom colored canopy built for me. I originally was interested in a Samurai and a Crossfire, but both of these mfgs. blew me off after I put a demo request in. Dan delivered a demo inside a week. I have since purchased a crossbraced wing, but my Cobalt remains my mainstay because of its variable performance range, reliable openings and quick turns.

-Hixxx

"Sus ma tub, Dr. Suess ma tub" Crazy


alan  (D 17868)

Feb 20, 2002, 5:57 PM
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In reply to:
I varied the pack job to where I would get a 6 second opening, but with the snivel I was still going through 1200 to 1500 feet by the time I was in the saddle.
In a stable, face to earth position, terminal velocity is generally accepted as being about 176 ft/sec. That means that in 6 sec at terminal velocity you would travel about 1056 ft. That is pretty consistent with what is generally taught in most first jump courses and what is in the SIM......you travel about 1000' in 6 sec at terminal velocity. You seem to feel that with a snivelling/opening parachute above you, adding drag and decellerating you, that you somehow manage to travel 1200' to 1500' in the same 6 seconds that the rest of us travel 1000' in at terminal with nothing out. I understand that as the bag comes out and stands you up during the period of snatch force, that there may be a brief period of accelleration, but the decelleration experienced during the opening shock more than offsets that. Your numbers don't work. A slow opening on a canopy such as the Crossfire is about 800 ft. Openings longer than that are certainly possible, but rare. Opening = pitch(pc inflation) until slider is 3/4 down lines.


alan


Canuck

Feb 20, 2002, 6:13 PM
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Chuck, what do you mean anything "but" a 105 and you will have butter openings, etc. Is there something wrong with Cobalt 105's?

Canuck




Jon  (A 34158)

Feb 20, 2002, 6:52 PM
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Be careful of the 135 too, right Phree?



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