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VIGIL in the U.S

 

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schwede  (D 6463)

Feb 11, 2004, 5:02 AM
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VIGIL in the U.S Can't Post

As the Skydiving magazine takes about two months to reach Sweden and I have heard that in the last Issue- Feb (I just received Nov issue) had been something about that of the 20 units recently delivered already 4 had missfired in one way or another.

Can somebody fill me in on this???


lazyfrog

Feb 11, 2004, 5:13 AM
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Re: [schwede] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

4 on 20 US delivered Vigils ??
I only heard about a Vigil which misfired last summer in the french RW4.
there might be other cases but didn't hear about them.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Feb 11, 2004, 5:48 AM
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Re: [lazyfrog] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
4 on 20 US delivered Vigils ??
I only heard about a Vigil which misfired last summer in the french RW4.
there might be other cases but didn't hear about them.

There was an article in the latest Skydiving of a Vigil misfire on the ground, in the US I believe.


lazyfrog

Feb 11, 2004, 6:25 AM
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Re: [Remster] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

scary...
I don't have this mag...
I don't have a Vigil either Tongue


Chrisky

Feb 11, 2004, 10:46 AM
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Re: [Remster] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

Believing doesn't help much... except for a cleric.

Anyone actually has the Mag and can give more details?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Feb 11, 2004, 10:49 AM
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Re: [Chrisky] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe I shoudl have said "as I remember reading last nite"... better?Wink

And besides, regardless of the country, there was a reported misfire.


darkwing  (D 4164)

Feb 11, 2004, 11:20 AM
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Re: [Remster] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

working from memory out of the current issue of Skydiving... A vigil misfired in the air, just after the main opened (at a reasonable altitude). Then it misfired in the rigging loft after it was serviced for the first misfire. It has been sent to the manufacturer.


Chrisky

Feb 11, 2004, 11:22 AM
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Re: [Remster] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

Waaay better. Wink

Sure, there was a reported misfire on the french RW team last year, but were there a new ones?
Where, when and how?
That's what i'm curious about.

Edit: I'm just a too slow typist...


(This post was edited by Chrisky on Feb 11, 2004, 12:01 PM)


kimgriffin  (D 15354)

Feb 11, 2004, 11:58 AM
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Re: [schwede] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

Tjene Schwede! Let me clear some things up:

First, there are MANY more than 20 Vigils in the US. We're past the triple digit mark in the US alone - and that's all I can disclose on that.

Second, to my knowledge, there has only been one POSSIBLE (meaning conclusive tests are not back yet) mis-fire and that is the one in question in the Feb 04 Skydiving Magazine article. As someone mentioned above, there was a misfire last summer with a sponsored French team member. What many people did not know is that at the time the French were jumping beta test units - which was something different than a normal production Vigil.

Okay, on to the Skydiving Magazine article...
Parts of Skydiving Magazine's article about the US Vigil fire were completely incorrect. I will be contacting them about this shortly in order to get correct information out to the public. Skydiving Mag did not contact the jumper who had the Vigil fire and they did not contact me, so basically they went off of second party information.

The jumper told me himself that, per looking at his Neptune, he pulled at 1600 ft to get separation from the other jumpers on the formation. He said he was in the saddle at 1000 ft when the Vigil fired. (Skydiving Magazine reported that his rigger said that he pulled at 2000 ft.) The jumper had two canopies out and landed safely. The computer data logger in his Vigil recorded that the jumper pulled at 1300 ft - and on the jump before that he did not pull much higher. The problem with pulling low with an AAD is that while your main starts to inflate and sit you up, the barometric pressure around the rig is changing. This can cause an activation up to 250 ft higher than the preset activation altitude. The Vigil in "Pro" mode is set to fire at 800 ft. (800 + 250 = 1150 ft.) Both the Cypres and the Vigil can and likely will fire at 1000 ft if you are pulling low.

The ground fire of the same AAD...
Believe me, I want to know the facts when it comes to the product I'm selling. I refuse to BS anyone - I've been skydiving for 12 years and skydiving community is like family. When I heard of the Vigil firing on the ground, I called the designer in Belgium. He said what MAY have caused the activation on the ground is that the two wires going to the controller and to the cutter were swapped. But, THIS IS AN UNOFFICIAL STATEMENT, so please take it as such. The Vigil in question at the factory in Belgium being tested right now. I am still waiting to hear the official word. I will be back when the tests are conclusive.

A word on misfires... Be careful about believing everything you read. Research and inquire for yourself. Before deciding on your opinion, be as imformed as possible. (Which, I know you are doing, Schwede, by posting here.) Even if an AAD does misfire, you would never jump any AAD on the market if you based your decision on one (or even more) misfire. I don't know of an AAD manufacturer that can claim 0 misfires.

EACH Vigil is tested six times in a pressure chamber before it will ship. The computer generated results will be saved for the life of each Vigil.

I'm not a dummy, I understand Vigil needs to earn its good reputation, and it will. You have not seen all the data I've seen, or know what I know about how MUCH testing has been done over the years, and you don't know the design company behind the product. So, I don't blame anyone for asking questions. Of course, you should feel confident about the equipment you jump! I can tell you that you have every reason to feel confident with a Vigil on your back. Please feel free to ask me rather than believe everything you hear or even read. The skydiving rumor mill is infamous for the stories it can create.

I will answer your questions as quickly as I can and I will be straight with you.

Kim Griffin
Vigil USA
Sales Manager
(Schwede, you know me as the BirdwoMan from last Herc Boogie)


(This post was edited by kimgriffin on Feb 11, 2004, 12:06 PM)


Ron

Feb 11, 2004, 12:54 PM
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Re: [kimgriffin] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

Not trying to start shit....

In reply to:
The jumper told me himself that, per looking at his Neptune, he pulled at 1600 ft to get separation from the other jumpers on the formation. He said he was in the saddle at 1000 ft when the Vigil fired.

We all know that sometimes jumpers tell different stories at different times about the same event.

Skydiving may have gotten "Good" info from the rigger....They guy *could* have changed his story.

In reply to:
Skydiving Magazine reported that his rigger said that he pulled at 2000 ft.

Or the rigger changed the story...It happens also.

In reply to:
I will answer your questions as quickly as I can and I will be straight with you

And while I know you, and trust you....

This:
Quote:
Kim Griffin
Vigil USA
Sales Manager

Might make some question that.

For those that don't know Kim...I do know her and I trust her.

All I would ask everyone to do is to keep asking good questions...I am sure that ALL parties involved would like this to be resolved. And I have no doubt that Kim and company will keep us informed.

In reply to:
I'm not a dummy, I understand Vigil needs to earn its good reputation, and it will.

Reputation is a fickle thing....No offense to the Vigil or Kim...but I would not buy any new piece of skydiving gear till it's been out two years.

Only after that amount of time does a new piece of gear have enough "real world" time for me to be able to make a good choice on it.

But thats my take...Everyone please feel free to run out and buy the new stuff....I'll let you put the real world time on it.


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 11, 2004, 2:19 PM
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Re: [Ron] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

If no one should buy a new piece of equipment until it has been out for two years, then there would NEVER be any new equipment. We would all still be jumping rounds with Capewell canopy releases. No, wait a minute, we wouldn't be jumping at all, because even round canopies and Capewell releases were "new" once.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 11, 2004, 2:32 PM
Post #12 of 121 (3731 views)
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Re: [billbooth] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

>If no one should buy a new piece of equipment until it has been
>out for two years, then there would NEVER be any new equipment.

I think it's part of a natural evolution. Some new and revolutionary devices (ZP canopies, microline, 3 ring releases) start slow and end up dominating the market. Some (the Catapult, the SOS system) get some market share, but people argue over their effectiveness and they don't get a huge base of support. Others (the Chrysalis release system, the 2-sided RSL) never get much traction, often for good reason.

And then there are the Novas, designs that sell a decent amount but turn out to be downright dangerous.

There will always be early adopters, especially experienced jumpers who can see the benefit in a new design or angle. But I can see why someone with less experience would want to wait until _after_ that sort of shakeout happens before deciding which equipment to buy.


MarkM  (C 35089)

Feb 11, 2004, 2:44 PM
Post #13 of 121 (3725 views)
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Re: [kimgriffin] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
First, there are MANY more than 20 Vigils in the US. We're past the triple digit mark in the US alone - and that's all I can disclose on that.

I'm not a dummy, I understand Vigil needs to earn its good reputation, and it will. You have not seen all the data I've seen, or know what I know about how MUCH testing has been done over the years, and you don't know the design company behind the product. So, I don't blame anyone for asking questions.

Why can't you disclose how many units are in the US and why can't we see more of the test data?

I worry less about getting the perfect product and worry more that the company selling me the product won't tell me it's not perfect. I'm sure Airtec doesn't go around advertising their misfires, but we've had years of "public" data showing when and how they mess up.


fred  (A 44905)

Feb 11, 2004, 5:30 PM
Post #14 of 121 (3692 views)
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Re: [kimgriffin] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't want to start any shit, either, but your post is problematic.

In reply to:
First, there are MANY more than 20 Vigils in the US. We're past the triple digit mark in the US alone - and that's all I can disclose on that.

Non-disclosures for sales figures? Talk to your boss, make him wave that. If you're selling fewer than you thought, well, slow-market acceptance. If you're selling more, then that's good news. If you're selling what you expected, then that's awareness of the market. There's nothing about your sales figures that tells me anything about the product itself.

Your post made me more nervous about the Vigil. You can't tell me how many you've sold? You can't tell me why the beta failed?

You're talking about a piece of equipment I was [planning on] buying to possibly save my life, you need to be open about it. Like all skydiving equipment, we know that we can't rely on it 100% of the time. We're smart consumers, and we need to know exactly what the risks are, what we can do to avoid them, and then we make up our own minds whether or not to continue.

Quote:
The jumper told me himself that, per looking at his Neptune, he pulled at 1600 ft to get separation from the other jumpers on the formation. He said he was in the saddle at 1000 ft when the Vigil fired.

Anybody who's read the stories on DZ.com for awhile knows that skydivers always think they pulled higher than they did.

Quote:
The computer data logger in his Vigil recorded that the jumper pulled at 1300 ft - and on the jump before that he did not pull much higher.

And, because of the reasons you mentioned later in your post, I don't trust this number, either. Actual pull altitude is hard to tell for a jumper, and hard to determine algorithmically.

Quote:
The Vigil in "Pro" mode is set to fire at 800 ft. (800 + 250 = 1150 ft.) Both the Cypres and the Vigil can and likely will fire at 1000 ft if you are pulling low.

And this is what really hurt me. You wrote: "I refuse to BS anyone." And I hope you mean it, but this is terrible. Your numbers are all wrong, and steadily decreasing in the most obviously misleading way. The only reason I don't think it was intentional is because it's so obviously misleading.

Rigger said 2000 ft. Jumper said 1600. Vigil said 1300. Your calculation for margin of error said, "1150 ft" for a low-pull misfire is perfectly normal, since both Vigil and CyPress may misfire at 1000ft. They're set to activate at 800ft.

Amazing how quickly you can move us from 1600 ft to 1000 ft and tell us that's within margin of error.

But 800+250 = 1050 ft, not 1150. And certainly not 1600 ft.

At the best, you're just bad at math.
What I expect is that you just want to help your company by posting an explanation for an accident that is outside of tolerance, and is probably very unlikely to happen again.
At worst, you're intentionally trying to mislead the skydiving community into believing your product is safer than it is.


masher  (D 3806)

Feb 11, 2004, 6:03 PM
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Re: [fred] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Rigger said 2000 ft. Jumper said 1600. Vigil said 1300. Your calculation for margin of error said, "1150 ft" for a low-pull misfire is perfectly normal, since both Vigil and CyPress may misfire at 1000ft. They're set to activate at 800ft. .

THe jumper said he _pulled_ at 1600. Not open by 1600. He was open by 1000 (apparantly). With the change in orientation of the vigil and requisite change in apparent atmospheric pressure, it is possible that the Vigil would fire. It's also possible that a cypres would fire.

You should also note that the jumper (allegedly) pulled not much higher than that on a previous jump.

If you jump a "modern" AAD, going down to 1500' is going to put you into AAD territory. If you want to avoid a two-out: dump higher or don't jump an AAD.


Ron

Feb 11, 2004, 6:33 PM
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Re: [billbooth] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill, I trust your opinion....

If you look at what I wrote...
Quote:
but I would not buy any new piece of skydiving gear till it's been out two years.

Only after that amount of time does a new piece of gear have enough "real world" time for me to be able to make a good choice on it.

The key there being I would not buy ...As in I am not going to be the first on the block to run out and pay for a new toy. I have been the first on the block with a new toy...but I didn't pay for it. There have been WAY to many "great ideas" that were not.

Nova....A great canopy right?
Astra...Gonna change the market remember?
Original CrossFire....Except the ones PA made.
Micro Raven.....Well who does not want a reserve that will blow up?
And a current one the Neptune....I don't want to pay for a product that is not ready for release.

Some do, and thats fine...I personally don't mind being a test jumper...(I have done it) But I like to KNOW I'm a test jumper...If I have to buy the gear, I am not going to buy the newest thing till it has been proven.

There are two exceptions to my rule...One is RW, and the other PD....But they have both had issues...If I remember RW built a few Skyhooks wrong correct? Well I don't want to be one of the guys that gets one of those.

I don't mind being a test jumper...When I know I am a test jumper. If I have to buy the gear...I'll buy the proven design...Not the new thing.

Its an idea I got from Niklas G. my old Frost teammate.

I have talked to you several times...you really do know your stuff...But I am not going to pay to be a betta tester.

Others with a more "adventurous" spirit can be free to pay for products that might not be ready, and might flat out be dangerous. Like I said, think Nova.

Call me a fuddy duddy...But I think saftey over having the shinny new toys.


Ron

Feb 11, 2004, 6:35 PM
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Re: [billvon] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But I can see why someone with less experience would want to wait until _after_ that sort of shakeout happens before deciding which equipment to buy.

Bill, did you just call me inexperienced???? Thats like a personal attack right?
Tongue

I just don't want to pay to jump a Nova in a reflex with a Micro Raven and an Astra.

Its called saftey over having the shinny new toys.

And like I said it MY opinion...Feel free to be the first kid on the block with the new toy. Just accept that it could kill you.


(This post was edited by Ron on Feb 11, 2004, 6:37 PM)


kimgriffin  (D 15354)

Feb 12, 2004, 7:57 AM
Post #18 of 121 (3597 views)
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Re: [fred] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Fred.

You find it odd that I do not post Vigil USA's exact sales figures? I find it odd that you assume I should. How would the numbers 113 or 173 affect the discussion we were having? I've worked for PD, BirdMan and now Vigil over the past 12 years and it has always been the policy to keep exact sales numbers in house. So, I was just doing what I thought was right. If the owners of Vigil USA tell me to go ahead and release the sales figures, I surely will. There's nothing to hide.

Okay, you got me on the math! I had to laugh to think that you would consider that I was trying to mislead anyone with my botched addition.

_____________Quote____
Amazing how quickly you can move us from 1600 ft to 1000 ft and tell us that's within margin of error.
________________________

Before you go attempting to slam me any harder, please re-read what I wrote:

The jumper said he pulled around 1600 ft
The Vigil recorded his pull at 1300 ft
The jumper said he was in the saddle around 1000 ft (he may have been a little lower than that by the Vigil's calculations)
Now... with most modern AADs, if you are pulling low, you DO risk popping your AAD +250 higher than it is set to fire. This is due to the change in barometric pressure around your rig while you main is sitting you up.

_____________Quote____
What I expect is that you just want to help your company by posting an explanation for an accident that is outside of tolerance, and is probably very unlikely to happen again.
________________________

I have no idea yet if the Vigil was "out of tolerance" or if something was done incorrectly when the rigger replaced the cutter. I am waiting for the factory to finish their tests and get back to me.

_____________Quote____
At worst, you're intentionally trying to mislead the skydiving community into believing your product is safer than it is.
_______________________

Come on, Fred... I'm trying not to use any swear words here... that accusition is so incredibly insulting. Why would I promote a product that I thought would comprimise a skydiver's safety? This is skydiving for God's sake, not cut-throat politics or the oil industry. I've been jumping a lot longer than I've been working for Vigil USA and I will still be jumping if I stopped working for them. First of all, after learning all I could about the Vigil, I feel more confident about this AAD than any other on the market (really). Hey, but I know that is just my opinion (although it is an informed opinion). I encourage people to question and research info on past and current AAD technology and make up their own minds.

In the big picture, I see Vigil as being great for this industry - no matter what AAD people choose. Breaking the monopoly that has been dominant for so many years is going to only benefit the skydivers. Over the years, competition is going to force AAD mfgs to try to out do eachother with better products.

Fred, maybe you're just one of those types of people who are generally suspicious of everyone. Well, I actually respect that over someone who would never question anything.

I can swear to you, though, that no I am not out to "mislead" people in to purchasing a Vigil. First, my personal integrity comes before any company I work for. Secondly, if I WOULD intentionally mislead people that would only be bad for the company - this is a very small industry and it doesn't take long for word to spread.

Kim Griffin
Vigil USA
Sales Manager


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 12, 2004, 9:45 AM
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Re: [Ron] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

>Nova....A great canopy right?
>Astra...Gonna change the market remember?

No question, but there are also the cypres, 3 ring release, and square reserve examples.

>Bill, did you just call me inexperienced???? Thats like a personal
>attack right?

No, it's only a personal attack if I threaten to bomb your suburb also.

>I just don't want to pay to jump a Nova in a reflex with a Micro Raven
>and an Astra.

No problem, but keep in mind that the MR has been around for a long, long time, much longer than, say, the Amigo (which is a great reserve.) I made the above statement because many newer jumpers cannot evaluate the gear they jump; they have to rely on other people's opinions/judgements for a while. In some cases, I can now make better judgements than them. Some examples:

When the Astra came out, I went up to their factory and talked to Alsadair for a while about the design. I didn't think the algorithm they used was very reliable, although the hardware was nothing short of magnificent. So I didn't use it.

When the Pilot first came out, I got a demo and put a bunch of jumps on it; also spent some time going through the canopy itself in terms of design. It's a good canopy, and so I both use one and recommend them. Might there be some hidden defect? Well, maybe, but it's unlikely.

Derek and I took a close look at a Smart reserve over Christmas. Although there weren't any serious problems with it, there were some minor problems that made me think it has no significant advantages over other reserves, and _might_ have some problems (IMO.) So I'll wait a few years to see how they turn out before deciding if they are worthwhile.

>Its called saftey over having the shinny new toys.

An Amigo will do a better job of keeping you uninjured than a small Microraven, even though the MR has been around much, much longer. Sometimes safety _means_ having the shiny new toys. It takes a while to get the good judgement to know which is which.


Ron

Feb 12, 2004, 10:27 AM
Post #20 of 121 (3559 views)
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Re: [billvon] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No question, but there are also the cypres, 3 ring release, and square reserve examples

There have been issues with the 3 rings...

In reply to:
An Amigo will do a better job of keeping you uninjured than a small Microraven, even though the MR has been around much, much longer. Sometimes safety _means_ having the shiny new toys. It takes a while to get the good judgement to know which is which

Yes, but due to the fact that the MR has been around...We know the issues that they can have...No one did when they first came out. I doubt they would have sold as well if people knew they had those issues.

And MOST people that skydive are not going to go and do the research like you and I both do....I for one could not have made a call on the ASTRAS algorithm.

And just look at the Neptune threads...People were ordering them sight unseen. And they had issues didn't they? I could spend the same amount on the Protrack...And while its not as flashy, and not as cool..It has proven itself. In two years I bet it WILL be as good if not better than the Protrak...Or it will be off the market.

And I know several folks that ordered the Katana, and have never even SEEN one fly. I bet the folks that bought the first Novas, and original Crossfires wish they had waited.

There is a balance...But most folks can't make the kinds of calls that some can. Hell, Im lucky. I live in one of the skydiving mecas of the world. Some guy in Arkansas does not have the research tools I have.

And lets look at the risk of getting the cool new toy over waiting.

You could get the cool new toy and your buddies think you are cool as hell...then it kills you.

or

You can wait, and not be cool but be safer.

I think the choice is very clear.

Would you like to be the first guy killed by a new AAD?


elfanie  (B 27003)

Feb 12, 2004, 10:30 AM
Post #21 of 121 (3554 views)
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Re: [Ron] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Micro Raven.....Well who does not want a reserve that will blow up?


Whoah whoah whoah...
*blows a whistle*

Time out here.

I have a MicroRaven 150 as my reserve...are you telling me that these things are known to..blow up???

Yee-gads! Seriously....what's the track record like on the MR's?


Ron

Feb 12, 2004, 10:50 AM
Post #22 of 121 (3543 views)
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Re: [elfanie] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

peep this:
http://www.dropzone.com/...cgi?post=66387#66387

and this

http://www.dropzone.com/...cgi?post=86023#86023

There were some issues,, and the "fix" was bullshit.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 12, 2004, 11:01 AM
Post #23 of 121 (3538 views)
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Re: [elfanie] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

> have a MicroRaven 150 as my reserve...are you telling me that
>these things are known to..blow up???

A few have blown their line attachement points during hard opening. There's a fix for it on the Precision website. There are a lot of MR's out there; the number of reserves that have had problems are very small. Ask your rigger if it worries you. He'll be able to tell you if your reserve was among the group affected, and if the fix has been applied.


elfanie  (B 27003)

Feb 12, 2004, 11:04 AM
Post #24 of 121 (3537 views)
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Re: [Ron] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There were some issues,, and the "fix" was bullshit.

Ok..so help me out here...

Is a MicroRaven the same thing as a Raven-M? Did all of the ravens have problems, or just certain ones?

You're right that not all of us have the knowledge (or even ability) to look things up as much as you and Bill have...but since you've already put all of this effort into it, it's nice that you're willing (and able) to share with the rest of us...


ChileRelleno  (D 24868)

Feb 12, 2004, 11:08 AM
Post #25 of 121 (3535 views)
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Re: [kimgriffin] VIGIL in the U.S [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now... with most modern AADs, if you are pulling low, you DO risk popping your AAD +250 higher than it is set to fire. This is due to the change in barometric pressure around your rig while you main is sitting you up.

Been there, done that... With my CYPRESBlush.

This was something that came to my mind even when reading it as a 2000' deployment, 900'- 1000' snivels are not uncommon nowadays under some canopies.
The only thing that raised my eyebrow was firing on the riggers table, but I'll wait and listen for test results on that mis-fire.

Thank you for feedback/reply here on this thread.


(This post was edited by ChileRelleno on Feb 12, 2004, 11:08 AM)


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