Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Hey...it might happen?

 

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Zoter

Feb 10, 2004, 11:12 AM
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Hey...it might happen? Can't Post

I have just watched a video ( from the much missed skydivingmovies.com)
Dude stepping out of a Porter as Centre float...and I guess his reserve pin was bumped because hes got a white one above his head at 12K.

What can /would you do ...if the reserve had some sort of mal...?
You still have a functioning main ...right?

Fair enough it it was high speed you got a min in freefall to 'deal' with it....
But what if it was a just something that was not landable..

Im confused....but at least I would have about 15 mins to think about it Cool


jejejelle  (A License)

Feb 10, 2004, 11:28 AM
Post #2 of 55 (2842 views)
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Re: [Zoter] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

look at your cheststrap and be happy if you see a big hook knife somewhere... cut the risers and deploy your main

should be possible imo Smile


edit: did you hear the sound of pure "wtf just happened" on the vid?Shocked


(This post was edited by jejejelle on Feb 10, 2004, 11:29 AM)


karenmeal  (D 24737)

Feb 10, 2004, 11:34 AM
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Re: [jejejelle] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do not try to cut away the reserve! Somebody at my old DZ tried to do that and guess what... half way through he dropped the hook knife, and got allllll kinds of f***ed up.

I'm not sure what I would do, be one of those situations that I would have to be in and observe all the particulars to make a decision.


jejejelle  (A License)

Feb 10, 2004, 11:44 AM
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Re: [karenmeal] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

but how about deploying your main in a spinning mal on the reserve?

he dropped the hook knife? Shocked did he survive?


(This post was edited by jejejelle on Feb 10, 2004, 11:47 AM)


beowulf  (C License)

Feb 10, 2004, 11:54 AM
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Re: [karenmeal] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmmm
I would think cutting away the reserve would be the only choice if a hook knife was available. Just be sure to get the job done before dropping the hook knife! That is if the reserve is not in good working condition.


pilotdave  (D License)

Feb 10, 2004, 11:55 AM
Post #6 of 55 (2795 views)
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Re: [Zoter] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

The scary thing about that video is the guy goes OVER the porter's stabilizer. It's hard to see cause it happens so fast, but watch it a few times and pause it.

Site'll be opening soon. Video is called "overthetop.wmv" or .mpg or something.

Dave


Nullified  (C 32259)

Feb 10, 2004, 12:05 PM
Post #7 of 55 (2786 views)
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Re: [karenmeal] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do not try to cut away the reserve! Somebody at my old DZ tried to do that and guess what... half way through he dropped the hook knife, and got allllll kinds of f***ed up.

It's ironic that this is posted today, as last night I was thinking about this...I don't know why.

If the reserve malled and I still had an un-deployed main, given time I'd try to correct the mal.
If it became apparent that it was uncorrectable, I would not hesitate to slice the risers. It is a malfunction and unlandable, and deploying a main in to a bad reserve is no better than deploying a reserve in to a bad main. Depending on altitude, yes it's better to have more over you, even if it is a mess, than to go back in to freefall and hope that whatever canopy comes out in time, but if you're at 10k with an unlandable reserve, I think 'unlandable' is the key word. Given the opportunity and means, why wouldn't you get rid of it?

Stay safe,
Mike


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 10, 2004, 12:27 PM
Post #8 of 55 (2758 views)
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Re: [karenmeal] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do not try to cut away the reserve! Somebody at my old DZ tried to do that and guess what... half way through he dropped the hook knife, and got allllll kinds of f***ed up.

That is exactly why you should have 2 hook knives (or even more, if you want to).

Unimpressed


crzjp20  (A 45548)

Feb 10, 2004, 12:57 PM
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Re: [skydiverek] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

i know im just a newbie but why the hell would you want to cut away a perfectly good canopy? Especially since it is the reserve, i amena if somethign gets screwed up on the main after you cut the reserve, your secrewed. Yeah you have a long canopy ride, but hey, i would raher have a long canopy ride, then take the chance of my main not opening properly with no reserve.


oh well just my thoughts

Blue Skys


Falko  (D 10613)

Feb 10, 2004, 1:13 PM
Post #10 of 55 (2707 views)
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Re: [Nullified] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If the reserve malled and I still had an un-deployed main, given time I'd try to correct the mal. If it became apparent that it was uncorrectable, I would not hesitate to slice the risers.

Same here, given enough altitude. This thread is good for creating nightmares. Shocked Right now I have nothing better to do, so here's what I would (hopefully) do in case of an unsurvivable reserve malfunction:

(1) Check if left cutaway cable is still in riser housing
(2) Check if right cutaway cable is still in riser housing
(3) Check if cutaway handle is still in place
(4) Touch my hand deploy
(5) Check alti
(6) Cutaway the reserve risers (If I only have a plastic knife I might choose to cut the lines rather than the risers. This would take a little longer but I wouldn't want the knife to break half way through.)
(7) Back in freefall switching the knife from right hand to left hand (Lineover on main?)
(8) Deploy main and hope I didn't forget to cock my PC. Angelic

If I discover a problem on steps 1 to 4 ... well... uhm, any suggestions? Laugh


(This post was edited by Falko on Feb 10, 2004, 1:21 PM)


Falko  (D 10613)

Feb 10, 2004, 1:18 PM
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Re: [crzjp20] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[..] why the hell would you want to cut away a perfectly good canopy?

In this little "mind job" thread Tongue it's a malfunctioning reserve. For example, if torn in pieces by the tail stabilizer and all you have is a streamer. ShockedLaugh


crzjp20  (A 45548)

Feb 10, 2004, 1:26 PM
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Re: [Falko] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

oh ok

just read it wrong, never mind.......


Blue Skys


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Feb 10, 2004, 1:33 PM
Post #13 of 55 (2680 views)
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Re: [karenmeal] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do not try to cut away the reserve! Somebody at my old DZ tried to do that and guess what... half way through he dropped the hook knife, and got allllll kinds of f***ed up.

I would think that we should not be so quick to give such concrete advice.

Ultimately, we need do whatever the situation dictates. We need to do whatever it is that will keep us alive.

The question was "what if you've got a malfunctioning premature reserve"? To me, a malfunctioning reserve is one that is not landable. As I understand the situation as described, doing nothing is not an option.

Given the situation as described, the correct answer is that the jumper should use any and all tools available to ensure they land safely under a good parachute.

This might mean using a hook-knife to clear a line-over, if that is that malfunction.

Indeed it might also mean using a hook-knife to manually clear the malfunctioning reserve and deploying the main.

_Am


Zoter

Feb 10, 2004, 1:34 PM
Post #14 of 55 (2678 views)
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Re: [Falko] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice call on checking the cutaway cables and PC...didnt think about that
How much of a bad day would that be !!
Prem Reserve deployment
'Find' hook knife and cut risers /lines on reserve
Go for hand deploy ...not there
or
Deploy main and see it flutter away !!

By the way...you skylords....just how easy is it to cut through a riser with a hook knife...
And
How would you do it....surely after you slice one side of risers you are gonna be spinning violently...??

so...??
(Dont get me wrong....Im not looking for a 'text book...this is what to do in the event of...' answer'.......just your opinions dudes.)


(This post was edited by Zoter on Feb 10, 2004, 1:36 PM)


Zoter

Feb 10, 2004, 1:40 PM
Post #15 of 55 (2670 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave whats the deal and news on the site.....
I 'lived ' on skydivingmovies.com....Smile

Miss it loads man...whens it coming back....People been ssaying its 'coming back' for ages.

And you are correct this movie was 'overthetop.wmv'

Smile


Staso  (D 24665)

Feb 10, 2004, 2:20 PM
Post #16 of 55 (2634 views)
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Re: [Falko] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(6) Cutaway the reserve risers (If I only have a plastic knife I might choose to cut the lines rather than the risers. This would take a little longer but I wouldn't want the knife to break half way through.)

i think if you have lines under pressure, even plastic one will slice them in a second. in fact it's one
of the arguments about cutting line over - it's very easy to cut too many lines trying to cut the one
you really have to. i'm not sure about cutting risers though.

stan


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Feb 10, 2004, 2:36 PM
Post #17 of 55 (2619 views)
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Re: [Staso] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Under tension, risers will cut like a hot knife through butter as long as long as the knife is sharp.

_Am


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 10, 2004, 2:46 PM
Post #18 of 55 (2609 views)
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Re: [Zoter] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

>By the way...you skylords....just how easy is it to cut through a riser with a hook knife...

It is very easy to cut once you find it. It can be very hard to find. (Think about trying to cut a riser that's twisted up directly behind your neck, or whipping around like crazy . . .)


darkwing  (D 4164)

Feb 10, 2004, 5:56 PM
Post #19 of 55 (2561 views)
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Re: [billvon] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't forget that when you start cutting the risers or lines on the malfunctioned reserve it will begin flying very badly, if it isn't already, and it becomes more difficult and time consuming to finish the job. But heck, you have the rest of your life to deal with it. Keep a good grip on the knife.


gerrcoin  (B License)

Feb 11, 2004, 12:44 PM
Post #20 of 55 (2461 views)
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Re: [Zoter] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How would you do it....surely after you slice one side of risers you are gonna be spinning violently...??

I've never even had a cut away so as to cutting risers with a hook knife... this is mearly my thoughts on the matter.

I imagine that if you take a firm grip with free hand on the risers above the cut, say on the links, then when the knife goes through on side you can still support your weight on that set of lines and the canopy will not tend to spin as much (your weight distribution will be a bit uneven so I would expect a bit of a turn). Just remember to let go after the second cut Smile


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Feb 11, 2004, 1:25 PM
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Re: [Zoter] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Forget about cutting risers - cut the lines. Even if at that point I had a nice spinner, I'd be pumped up on enough adrenaline anyways to grip the hook knife with all I had. Cut away the other line sets, deploy main etc...

Hope I never have to try that in real life CrazyWink


ChileRelleno  (D 24868)

Feb 11, 2004, 1:30 PM
Post #22 of 55 (2445 views)
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Re: [gerrcoin] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I imagine that if you take a firm grip with free hand on the risers above the cut, say on the links, then when the knife goes through on side you can still support your weight on that set of lines and the canopy will not tend to spin as much (your weight distribution will be a bit uneven so I would expect a bit of a turn). Just remember to let go after the second cut

IMHO I don't think you could hold onto the riser/risers after cutting thru them especially with the average "loaded" reserve (I could be wrong). There is so much tension and the resulting jerk upon cutting would very likely rip them out of your hand while ripping your hand up. Also I forsee having to cut the risers fore and aft indvidually, so thats four cuts to make in all probability with cuts 2-4 being made in who knows what orientation.

All I really know is that I wouldn't wish this scenario on any jumper!

Perhaps we could find out more about dealing with cutaways such as this or similar by consulting the CRWdogs?

Chile runs over to the CRW Forum....


(This post was edited by ChileRelleno on Feb 11, 2004, 1:30 PM)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 11, 2004, 1:46 PM
Post #23 of 55 (2441 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Forget about cutting risers - cut the lines.

And deploy your LAST parachute (main) into four long, flapping risers... No thanks. Crazy



freakydiver  (D 26421)

Feb 11, 2004, 1:55 PM
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Re: [skydiverek] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't seem to me like that would be a big problem. It wouldn't be the main risers and reserve risers getting tangled - it would be anything past the reserve risers that could potentially get in the way. When the main deployed the main risers would have tension very quickly and would hold their own against some flappy reserve risers. I could be wrong - anyone?

So let me get this straight - its my LAST canpy? WinkCrazy


(This post was edited by freakydiver on Feb 11, 2004, 1:56 PM)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 11, 2004, 2:09 PM
Post #25 of 55 (2430 views)
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Re: [Zoter] Hey...it might happen? [In reply to] Can't Post

I recall an incident at Skydive Arizona about 10 years ago. The jumper's reserve opened when she was backing out of the door, pulled her out, and wrapped around the tail. She was left dangling there behind the plane. Fortuately, she HAD a hook knife and used it to cut away reserve parachute. She then freefell, deployed main and landed safely. Now, think about possibilities of solving this mess WITHOUT a hook knife... Unsure.

Couple more notes:

- Obviously, metal knives are better than plastic ones (those can break easily).

- It is not advisable to connect the knife to your rig thru a lanyard. If you are afraid about dropping your knife, use two, three, four of them, whatever... There was an accident where a knife (connected thru lanyard) fell out in freefall and slashed some lines on jumper's canopy during deployment. Moreover, holding a knife that uses lanyard in your hand creates a mini "horseshoe" that can trap things.

- Hook knife costs about the same as one jump... Wink




(This post was edited by skydiverek on Feb 11, 2004, 2:14 PM)


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