Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Why I don't jump without a CYPRES

 

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Freeflylizard  (A 101254)

Apr 3, 2001, 3:07 AM
Post #1 of 99 (4499 views)
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Why I don't jump without a CYPRES Can't Post

I am a freeflyer from the UK, and I have one proviso about my skydiving. I won't jump without a CYPRES. I get a lot of hassle about this from various people, whether it's at the DZ or on Dropzone.com forums. People often say to me I should not skydive if I'm not prepared to jump without a CYPRES as they reckon it means I don't trust myself to carry out my reserve drills properly. Bollocks! This really annoys me. If I didn't trust myself to cut away and pull my reserve I wouldn't jump at all - ever. People just don't seem to understand that however experienced you are and however capable and calm you are in a freefall emergency, you are not going to be able to save yourself if you are unconcious or if you dislocate your shoulders (just examples - look at the Airtec SSK CYPRES saves pages). Sure, this may be unlikely, but I would say that falling off my motorbike is unlikely as I am an extremely careful rider, but that doesn't stop me wearing a helmet. If anybody ever questions my decision not to jump unless I have a CYPRES (or other AAD) I would urge them to read the CYPRES save reports and the skydiving fatalities webpage.
Finally, and most importantly, I would like to say that all decisions regarding AAD's should be a matter of absolutely personal choice. I would never dream of telling anybody that they should or should not use one, as everybody has very individual feelings about them.
Does anyone disagree?



wildblue  (D 26027)

Apr 3, 2001, 6:32 AM
Post #2 of 99 (4460 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

I disagree.
I'm not going to get into a debate on this, I'm only going to give you my view. I realize I'm not going to change your opinion, and you are not going to change mine.
If you're that worried about getting knocked unconcious, then maybe you're getting in on jumps that you shouldn't be, either because you don't trust the people you're jumping with, or you don't trust your own skill to see and avoid the meat missle aimed at your cerebellum.

Just the way I feel. I do agree with you that everyone is entitled to their own personal choice.



Zennie

Apr 3, 2001, 11:09 AM
Post #3 of 99 (4428 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

You're not the only one that has that rule. It's my personal rule as well and it's one of our cameraman's rules as well.

I'm always looking around, but in skydiving, just as anything else, you just never know what might happen. I see the Cypres as my last line of defense from Mr. Murphy.


------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


SpeedRacer  (B 26329)

Apr 3, 2001, 1:12 PM
Post #4 of 99 (4407 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Only problem: if you're conscientious you'll send your Cypres in for its 4 year maintenance... I did that 4 weeks ago & I'm still waiting for it. What do you do in the meantime?
Ironically , I jumped on Safety Day without it. So I'm trying to be safe by having my Cypres properly maintained, but that means sometimes it's gonna be in the shop while I'm jumping. Waht are ya gonna do??
Since that weekend, though, the weather's sucked anyway so I haven't been tempted to go to the DZ.

I prefer to use a Cypres, but not quite enough to put off jumping altogether. After all, half the skydivers out there don't even have Cypres's.

Speed Racer
"Blue Skies, Red eyes, Sore thighs!"


Zennie

Apr 3, 2001, 1:18 PM
Post #5 of 99 (4405 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if you're conscientious you'll send your Cypres in for its 4 year maintenance... I did that 4 weeks ago & I'm still waiting for it. What do you do in the meantime?
In my case, I'll jump rental gear.


------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


Jessica  (B 25202)

Apr 3, 2001, 2:11 PM
Post #6 of 99 (4393 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In my case, I'll jump rental gear.
Me too. I, too, won't jump without one. It eases the mind of the people I love and I don't ever want to need one and not have it.



SpeedRacer  (B 26329)

Apr 3, 2001, 2:48 PM
Post #7 of 99 (4386 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Rental gear is not what I'm used to anymore. Aside from the fact that it costs almost 2 jump tickets to rent, it also has a ripcord rather than a throw out PC like mine, plus it has one of those student single-handle jobs for cutting away/pulling reserve. It's probably statistically safer to jump gear that you're used to jumping.

Speed Racer
"Blue Skies, Red eyes, Sore thighs!"


Jessica  (B 25202)

Apr 3, 2001, 3:08 PM
Post #8 of 99 (4382 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Rental gear is not what I'm used to anymore. Aside from the fact that it costs almost 2 jump tickets to rent, it also has a ripcord rather than a throw out PC like mine, plus it has one of those student single-handle jobs for cutting away/pulling reserve. It's probably statistically safer to jump gear that you're used to jumping.
Yeah, I absolutely agree. My dropzone has stuff remarkably like mine, though.



tigra  (C 27417)

Apr 3, 2001, 3:42 PM
Post #9 of 99 (4375 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

sorry if this seems like a dumb question, but, doesn't the rigger have to take out your reserve in order to get to your cypres? Then, if he repacks without the cypres, he'll have to repack it again 2-4 weeks later when he gets the cypres back? Seems like an awful lot of trouble when the weather is still pretty crappy in Chicago, so I just left my rig with my rigger and told him to call me when it was ready. I figured if I really got the urge to jump, I could borrow my fiance's rig, or rent one from dz. Luckily, my baby will be ready this weekend, so I'm hoping for blue skies and less than frigid air!



miked10270  (D 10270)

Apr 3, 2001, 3:53 PM
Post #10 of 99 (4374 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Tom,

So, you're not the "original Lizard"Tongue.

I'm feeling even more pedantic than usual, so I'm going to take issue with one small & irrelevant bit of your post:

"Falling off my motorbike is unlikely... but that doesn't stop me wearing a helmet"

*ARE YOU SURE* that Section 16 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (& it's associated $100 fines) isn't the thing that got you wearing a helmet for riding in the first place, & keeps you wearing one?

The reason I ask is that TRRL research indicates that 94% of motorcyclists "would not wear a helmet all the time" if it wasn't mandatory(& very visible)!!

What do you do when your Cypres is "away" for it's check? Do you accept the slight increase in risk? Do you modify your jumps? If so, then are you using the Cypres to "compensate" for increasing your personal risk (as drivers of cars equipped with ABS & airbags tend to drive more aggressively)?

Don't get me wrong, this IS NOT a personal attack, merely "food for thought".

Mike D10270.



Zennie

Apr 3, 2001, 4:54 PM
Post #11 of 99 (4365 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Rental gear is not what I'm used to anymore. Aside from the fact that it costs almost 2 jump tickets to rent, it also has a ripcord rather than a throw out PC like mine, plus it has one of those student single-handle jobs for cutting away/pulling reserve. It's probably statistically safer to jump gear that you're used to jumping.
I'm sure the quality of student gear varies from DZ to DZ. At my DZ (Spaceland) all the rental gear are Sabres with PD reserves in a Javelin container (and Cypres, obviously). Two-handle cutaway system. Their smallest Sabre is a 150.

I jump them now as I'm building my rig, so I'm not too worried about it being terribly different from my personal rig (when it's done). 'Course I'd prolly do 1-2 jumps with a high pull just to get a feel for it.


------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


drosenberg  (B License)

Apr 4, 2001, 5:47 AM
Post #12 of 99 (4330 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

I think AADs are very important as they obviously help reduce the risk of skydiving in some very rare cases, what people need to remember that rare cases and situation do happen and can get you in trouble even if you are the most competent and experienced diver in your DZ.

In any case at my DZ AAD are required and you can't jump without them, and we also have a mandatory gear check before loading the plane.

You might be surprised but even the hardcore freeflyers and skysurfers have gotten used to this and everybody is very happy with our good safety procedures.

Blue Skies




SpeedRacer  (B 26329)

Apr 4, 2001, 7:57 AM
Post #13 of 99 (4317 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, drosenburg, AAD's are required for everyone? Not just students? A good portion of the skydivers I know don't even have one.

MikeD, I'm still new to skydiving (44 jumps) so I don't do anything real dangerous. There's no difference between the way I'd jump with or without a Cypres. I'm pretty conservative either way at this point. Even with my Cypres, I jump as if it weren't there. It's purely a backup device for me, I don't rely on it.



Speed Racer
"Blue Skies, Red eyes, Sore thighs!"


drosenberg  (B License)

Apr 4, 2001, 9:23 AM
Post #14 of 99 (4305 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, you must have one and before loading the plane, as part of the final rig check, the person checking you will make sure that its ON.

Except for the part of it being expensive I don't think it bothers anyone. And in any case skydiving is very expensive here - $24 - $28 per jump.

Smooth Openings

David



robellis  (C License)

Apr 4, 2001, 9:44 AM
Post #15 of 99 (4299 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Stupid question I know, but why would anyone jump without a cypres? I understand the whole 'it's being serviced' and cost thing but I really can't see the danger of having one at all times.

It's similar, if somewhat more pronounced, with regards to canopy size. Sometimes I have off-days, so I don't jump a 2.3 wingloaded Velocity all the time - I jump a 1.8 which I know I can land in any condition. The vast majority of the time I can get away with loading my canopy 2.3 - does that mean I should do it all of the time? No. If my cypres is knackerd, I'll get it fixed and in the meantime, depending on the type of jump I'm doing I may jump my rig without one.

It's about compromise, not being so confident that you can do anything at all times. Damn, I fall over in the street sometimes and I've been walking for years. Well, months.

Rob









MarkM  (C 35089)

Apr 4, 2001, 12:48 PM
Post #16 of 99 (4277 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

"Falling off my motorbike is unlikely... but that doesn't stop me wearing a helmet"

*ARE YOU SURE* that Section 16 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (& it's associated $100 fines) isn't the thing that got you wearing a helmet for riding in the first place, & keeps you wearing one?

The reason I ask is that TRRL research indicates that 94% of motorcyclists "would not wear a helmet all the time" if it wasn't mandatory(& very visible)!!
Actually Mike, I live in Florida and helmets aren't required for riding a motorcycle. But I see a solid number of riders down here wearing helmets(and I'll be one of them).

I just wish they'd wear a little more body and leg protection, but then that's their call.

In reply to:
Stupid question I know, but why would anyone jump without a cypres? I understand the whole 'it's being serviced' and cost thing but I really can't see the danger of having one at all times.
Because they cost about a K and I'd be better off putting that money elsewhere.

I jump solo and wear a helmet to protect against head injury on leaving the plane.

If I did a lot more in close work with other jumpers I'd want a Cypres, but then I'd want a container with better main riser protection too.


In reply to:
It's about compromise, not being so confident that you can do anything at all times.
It's not so much compromise as risk assessment. High risk sports aren't about slapping on all the safety gear you can find and calling it a day.

They're about understanding what risks are involved in the behavior you're engaging in and using the appropriate equipment to mimimize those risks.


Do I check my blind spot before I do a lane change on the freeway? Yes, although I'd bet 98% of the drivers out there never bother to look over their shoulder when changing lanes.

Will I be wearing a helmet, Vanson leather jacket reinforced with CE certified armor, kevlar reinforced jeans and leather gloves and jeans when I ride my motorcycle? Yes, the way I ride and push my bike there's a solid chance of me crashing.

Do I feel the need for a Cypres to go out and do solo jumps or hop and pops? Not especially. That kind of safety gear just isn't likely to come into use with my jumping habits.






miked10270  (D 10270)

Apr 4, 2001, 2:55 PM
Post #17 of 99 (4264 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Mark,

So you got the Florida job... Nice oneSmile.

Here in the "YUK" helmets are mandatory (unless you're a Sikh - in which case Turbans are mandatory!!! - Strange but true). I posted more to illustrate a "Safety" attitude in government, and to highlight the "safety in equipment = more dangerous behaviour" attitude.

I must admit I'm posting this while drunk (hey I'm working tomorrow, not skydiving), so... To be blunt, if Motorcyclists took "safety" to it's absolute they'd be driving Volvos (& looking for motorcyclists to pull out in front of...) Skydivers would only fly QUANTAS (no crashes) but would still take their (Cypres equipped) rigs as carry on (just in case).

We can only take "safety" so far, and personal "risk assessment" is a personal thing. But... There is evidence through various studies (mostly in motoring) that indicate that more safety is translating to more reckless behaviour. One (tongue in cheekTongue) suggestion was that people would drive more safely & have fewer accidents if the drivers airbag was replaced with a Bowie knifeCrazy - "In the event of an accident a 9inch K-Bar knife will emerge from the steering wheel and stab you in the heart... This will prevent injury in an accident by making you drive more safely in the first place!!!"

Mike D10270.



Floater  (A 37766)

Apr 5, 2001, 4:16 AM
Post #18 of 99 (4228 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

I'm so damn sick of the Cypress debate. We can't seem to go a month without it popping up.
If you'll only jump with a cypress fine, if you don't want to jump with one, that's ok too.

JUST QUIT FEELING THE NEED TO TELL EVERYONE ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL OPINION ON THE MATTER.

Face facts, not everyone is going to agree on the subject so there's no point in beating a dead horse. Same goes for the RSL debate. Just jump with (or without) the safety gear you feel comfortable with and quit trying to make people that don't use the same equipment feel like they're second class jumpers because they are not just like you.

Just my thoughts.





Freeflylizard  (A 101254)

Apr 5, 2001, 8:35 AM
Post #19 of 99 (4208 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

"I'm so damn sick of the Cypress debate. We can't seem to go a month without it popping up."

The reason it pops up so much is because it is an issue which raises a lot of mixed feelings - the issue of CYPRES's is a very important one to our sport. And this is what these forums are here for anyhow, for a good debate on subjects we feel strongly or curious about.

"Falling off my motorbike is unlikely... but that doesn't stop me wearing a helmet"
"*ARE YOU SURE* that Section 16 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (& it's associated $100 fines) isn't the thing that got you wearing a helmet for riding in the first place, & keeps you wearing one?
The reason I ask is that TRRL research indicates that 94% of motorcyclists "would not wear a helmet all the time" if it wasn't mandatory(& very visible)!!"

In reply to that (no I'm not the Original Lizard! - But I do wear one of Ian Chapman's very fine freefly suits!!!), I would definitely still wear a helmet if they weren't mandatory. Sure, the enforcement of the rule probably is what got me wearing one in the first place, but I have seen what happens if you fall off at even a very slow speed without one, and it's not at all pretty! Hence the reason I don't even wear an open face helmet in the summer - gotta be a full-face even in town. So that's how it relates to my views on the CYPRES, i.e. I still have one even though it's not mandatory because I have seen what can (and of course I'm not saying in necessarily would) happen without one.

"JUST QUIT FEELING THE NEED TO TELL EVERYONE ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL OPINION ON THE MATTER."

Well, in reply to that, I think it's very important and interesting to hear other peoples' opinions on issues such as this. After all, that's what these forums are for. If you don't want to read these debates, the answer is simple - don't click on the 'forums' area on your computer screen!

Thanks for all the input guys and gals.
Blue Skies! Tom Arnold.





SkySlut  (D License)

Apr 5, 2001, 8:39 AM
Post #20 of 99 (4205 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

There is only one lizard!!!

www.larrythelizard.com



"I'll jump anything!"


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 5, 2001, 11:01 AM
Post #21 of 99 (4191 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

>In my case, I'll jump rental gear.

ok, that's dumb. it's foolish to use borrowed gear instead of your own gear in the name of safety. borrowed gear has killed a lot of people.

-bill von


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 5, 2001, 11:03 AM
Post #22 of 99 (4190 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

>People just don't seem to understand that however experienced you are and however capable and calm you are in a freefall emergency, you are not going to be able to save yourself if you are unconcious or if you dislocate your shoulders (just examples - look at the Airtec SSK CYPRES saves pages).

ok, fair enough. question - would you be willing to do a hop and pop without a cypres? no one else in the sky, no RW or freeflying planned?


-bill von


SkySlut  (D License)

Apr 5, 2001, 11:16 AM
Post #23 of 99 (4188 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill, good point. I saw a girl dislocate her shoulder in freefall...no collision, nothing...the thing just popped out off joint. It was her left arm, but imagine that??? That must have been the last thing that she was expecting. I certainly wouldnt have even thought of that happening. When she was down on the ground, one of the oldtimers said that he has seen that happen "quite often". I didnt get a good definition of what "quite often" means, but he certainly wasnt suprised by it...Point being, there are a lot of unforseen things that can go wrong up there. You never know...

"I'll jump anything!"


Zennie

Apr 5, 2001, 12:02 PM
Post #24 of 99 (4179 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Read my earlier post. I said it obviously depends on the quality of gear maintained by the DZ. Our DZ maintains good gear. I'm jumping it right now since I don't have a rig. You saying I should just stop jumping?


------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


MarkM  (C 35089)

Apr 5, 2001, 12:03 PM
Post #25 of 99 (4177 views)
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Re: Why I don't jump without a CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bill, good point. I saw a girl dislocate her shoulder in freefall...no collision, nothing...the thing just popped out off joint
Use other arm.

Pull silver handle.




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