Dec 17, 2003, 8:17 AM
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Re: [shunkka] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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i jumped only one with spingloaded PC after that i jumped only BOC but i think for students spingloaded are better because it forgives more mistakes
They are a bit more forgiving...but what happens after student progression when you get hand-deploy gear at 20 jumps or so? Now you're not being as closely watched and there is no one there to save your ass if you screw up...and you've already developed a certain muscle memory that you've got to overcome.
If you learn with BOC from the beginning, you've got Instructors there paying attention to no one but you and you never learn any different muscle memory or procedure.
Why not learn the style you're going to be using for your entire career, from the beginning?
billvon (D 16479)
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Dec 17, 2003, 8:20 AM
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Re: [wayne] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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Both work. Springloaded has very few disadvantages if you train jumpers to just throw the ripcord. Throwout is a little easier to manage, and requires one less transition if you don't want them throwing the ripcord.
Dec 17, 2003, 7:34 PM
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Re: [wayne] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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I think that springloaded for students is the way to go. Its more foregiving of bad body position when a throwout, and its pretty tough for them to be caught in your burble. Not to mention, thousands of students have changed from a ripcord to a throwout in the past... as far as I know, no major trends of students holding onto their pcs until cypres fire have occured.
The only cons of springloaded are that its harder to pack, you do have to reteach them the throwout (or pullout), and occasionally a student will probably hold onto their pc for a few seconds before they remember to toss it.
Dec 17, 2003, 8:02 PM
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Re: [rigging65] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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Now you're not being as closely watched and there is no one there to save your ass if you screw up...
I agree that having someone watch is good because they can debrief the student. But with S/L (or IAD) progression once the student leaves the plane, he is on his own. If he's pulling his own ripcord or hackey or whatever, ain't nobody else gonna do it for him.
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... and you've already developed a certain muscle memory that you've got to overcome.
This is true. Doubtless different people will have different troubles here. I remember discussing this with my jumpmasters and they said "don't worry, you'll remember to throw it. May take a couple seconds, and you'll be like 'where's my canopy? What's this in my hand? Oh yeah!'"
I swear I packed a throwout PC, stuffed it in the BOC, put the rig on, did arch-reach-pull-throw, and repeated 20 times, and sure enough, not a problem.
Dec 17, 2003, 8:09 PM
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Re: [bch7773] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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I think that springloaded for students is the way to go. Its more foregiving of bad body position when a throwout,
Not really.
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and its pretty tough for them to be caught in your burble.
Since the PC starts out in the burble and is relying on the spring to launch it clear of the burble, they tend to get caught in the burble often.
Quote:
Not to mention, thousands of students have changed from a ripcord to a throwout in the past... as far as I know, no major trends of students holding onto their pcs until cypres fire have occured.
It happends. Not usually till the Cypres fires, but they pull, think they have a total and pull the reserve. Of course they let go of the PC to pull the reserve and end up with 2-out.
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The only cons of springloaded are that its harder to pack, you do have to reteach them the throwout (or pullout), and occasionally a student will probably hold onto their pc for a few seconds before they remember to toss it.
In stressful situations people tend to revert back to their initial training. Starting with what they will use for the rest of their careers is the way to go, IMO.
Dec 17, 2003, 8:21 PM
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Re: [bch7773] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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its pretty tough for them to be caught in your burble.
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Not true at all. I have seen it MANY times the spring loaded PC come back onto my students back after a ripcord pull. By far the throw out PC gets a much better burble clearance and bag extraction.
.
billvon (D 16479)
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Dec 18, 2003, 10:43 AM
Post #9 of 16
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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>>I think that springloaded for students is the way to go. Its more >> foregiving of bad body position when a throwout,
>Not really.
I think springloadeds are much more forgiving of bad body positions; even if you pull on your back the spring is going to get the PC 18-24 inches away from his body before deployment begins. I've seen a few throwout PC's momentarily entangle with JM's, including one who had a horseshoe with her student's throwout due to an unstable opening. During a _normal_ deployment the throwout has the advantage though.
Dec 18, 2003, 10:53 AM
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Re: [wayne] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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Both methods of deployment are effective and both have there pro’s and con’s which could be debated for quite some time.
From my experience learning on spring loaded PC the problems I had was that I twisting my body to look at the handle before reaching, there went my arch. The cure, I was retrained not to look.
Once off supervision I transitioned to first ROL then BOC taking place with in the first four months in the sport. It certainly took ground training and in air PHTs which only means I was cautious and my DZ had an effective plan to instruct people who are making the transition. The draw back was it took personal to do the training.
Now being an instructor and working with students using BOC I have to agree with Rigger65;
Quote:
Why not learn the style you're going to be using for your entire career, from the beginning?
This allows corrective training from in air evaluations instead of having them figure things out on their own and or tying up the staff.
My question to you instructors, who are using BOC, do you have the student “Check” over their shoulder once they release the PC?
(This post was edited by lug on Dec 18, 2003, 11:00 AM)
Dec 18, 2003, 11:17 AM
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Re: [billvon] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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I think springloadeds are much more forgiving of bad body positions; even if you pull on your back the spring is going to get the PC 18-24 inches away from his body before deployment begins. I've seen a few throwout PC's momentarily entangle with JM's, including one who had a horseshoe with her student's throwout due to an unstable opening. During a _normal_ deployment the throwout has the advantage though.
I don't think it makes any difference as you can pull a throw-out PC that far away from your body. On your back a main spring loaded PC isn't going to launch very far into the wind before it takes whatever path around the jumper.
Dec 18, 2003, 11:35 AM
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Re: [FrogNog] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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But with S/L (or IAD) progression once the student leaves the plane, he is on his own. If he's pulling his own ripcord or hackey or whatever, ain't nobody else gonna do it for him.
When S/L students do practice pulls, they're practicing what they're going to be doing when they do it for themselves, right? Not practicing doing something, then changing once their Instructors are not longer there...
IMO, it's the same argument as SOS systems...why teach it if it's not going to be used in the real world, when there hasn't been anything to say that the "real world" system is any more dangerous when used in the field?
Again, you can pass or fail anything in theory, but it's in practice that it "earns its wings" so to speak...
Dec 18, 2003, 12:43 PM
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Re: [rigging65] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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But with S/L (or IAD) progression once the student leaves the plane, he is on his own. If he's pulling his own ripcord or hackey or whatever, ain't nobody else gonna do it for him.
You don't have a S/L student do PRCP's with a ripcord, then have them do their first free-fall with a BOC in a different location with different emergency procedures.
Dec 19, 2003, 8:22 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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About 20 years ago Canadian DZs standardized on throw-outs. More recently most Canadian DZs converted to BOC. We have a higher incidence of stable openings with BOC.
As for main ripcords ... they were fashionable when I was a student back in 1979 and I still have the facial scars to prove it!
Dec 19, 2003, 8:38 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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Derek,
Either way they still are going around the jumper. One just starts with a little more bridle hanging out. As far as springloaded PC's sticking in the burble, on AFF it's more common due to the enlarged burble from two or three skydivers. Great body position will cause it on a solo skydive however they tend to clear pretty quickly.
The only problem I've found with BOC is due to poorly fitting gear causing students to miss or grab my altimeter however, this usually shows during ground preps or PPCT's.
Dec 26, 2003, 12:23 AM
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Re: [sducoach] Student gear - BOC or sping loaded pilot chute?
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We have used both and recently moved to throw away. What happened to primacy in learning?? I have always said the first thing you teach someone should be the same thing they do later on. The throw aways have not been a problem at all for us just like the BOC ripcord you could not see argument was null and void for me as I had seen it work time and time again no problem. What happens with an alti and or ripcord higher up that you look at? NEGGIE! BSBD -Mark.
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BSBD -Mark. 
