Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach

 

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eugeneskydiver  (D License)

Dec 18, 2003, 5:49 PM
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Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach Can't Post

A question for all the really experienced canopy pilots out there. What are you opinions on starting your hookturn in full flight or using a more braked approach. Assuming that all variables are the same.
This question is especially for VX or Xaos 27 cell pilots.
Basically I just want to know if the trade off of lighter riser pressure is worth the slower initial speed.


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Dec 18, 2003, 6:01 PM
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Re: [eugeneskydiver] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

i personally sit in brakes most of the time, but if i'm looking to get a better swoop, say if i was having a little competition between me and someone at the dz then i will hang in rears to get the pressure off. it doesn't get as much pressure off, but still quite a bit, and you still have more speed. but in reality i can't really tell a big difference if any at all.

edit: oh yea, i jump a 85 vx about 300 jumps on it. and about 300 on a 84 fx before the fx.

later


(This post was edited by skygod7777 on Dec 18, 2003, 6:02 PM)


marks  (D 22296)

Dec 18, 2003, 6:03 PM
Post #3 of 38 (2437 views)
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Re: [eugeneskydiver] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A question for all the really experienced canopy pilots out there. What are you opinions on starting your hookturn in full flight or using a more braked approach. Assuming that all variables are the same.
This question is especially for VX or Xaos 27 cell pilots.
Basically I just want to know if the trade off of lighter riser pressure is worth the slower initial speed.


i start in full flight... i dont know what experiance level your looking for... im far from the best. but ive got a little experiance..

the reason i start in fill flight is because ive seen somone set up in deep brakes "with a crossbraced" vx to be spacific.... the set up for a downwind 270 in deep brakes and then when they pulled on the front riser the side of the canopy.... 2-3 cells... folded under.....

so i set up in full flight with my harnnes..... most of the pro's that ive seen seem to set up in full flight also..... but im sure there is some that do it in brakes... i think chuck "skymonkeyone" sets up in brakes....


but depending on where i am i may get in the brakes a little.... but prefer full flight


(This post was edited by marks on Dec 18, 2003, 6:06 PM)


hookitt  (D License)

Dec 18, 2003, 6:10 PM
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Re: [eugeneskydiver] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Preferably Full flight. You don't have to build the speed back up. Once I started my hookturns (agressive carving turns for the politically correct) from full flight, the distance increased trememdously.

My Xaos has very reasonable riser pressure so even if it's going a little faster than standard full flight, I can crank both risers down as far as I want to.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 18, 2003, 6:35 PM
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Re: [marks] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, then are the chances of a canopy folding up greater when setting up for a front riser turn from full brakes/some brakes compared to full flight. I'm thinking greater due to less cell pressure in brakes then in full flight, but I could very well be wrong (happens a lot).


marks  (D 22296)

Dec 18, 2003, 7:27 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok, then are the chances of a canopy folding up greater when setting up for a front riser turn from full brakes/some brakes compared to full flight. I'm thinking greater due to less cell pressure in brakes then in full flight, but I could very well be wrong (happens a lot).

i dont really know the reason WHY but i think it is because he got really deep into the front riser with no airspeed.... and maybee hit a bit of turbulance .... then it folded... only for a breif second. but it was enough to scare me. and him...


(This post was edited by marks on Dec 18, 2003, 7:27 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 19, 2003, 6:18 AM
Post #7 of 38 (2305 views)
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Re: [eugeneskydiver] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I'll use a braked approach to the turn point (or close to it) then go to full flight, and enter my turn while the canopy is in it's recovery dive from the braked configuration.

I'll do this for two reasons; first, it slows your speed in the pattern, and gives you the most time to set up and scan for / avoid traffic. Second, it builds a little extra speed before you enter your turn, which I think carries over into the swoop (even if it doesn't, it makes it more fun).

If I have a clear sky (as in all other jumpers have already landed), I'll fly the approach in full flight, get to my trun point early, and toggle 90 degress right, then ride that extra speed into whatever turn I'm doing (180, 270, etc.)

Again, I don't compete, so I don't know if any of these ideas translate into faster or longer swoops, but I'm happy with the results, and it keeps me entertained (especially the 90 right to 270 left move).


rigging65  (D 21921)

Dec 19, 2003, 8:34 AM
Post #8 of 38 (2265 views)
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Re: [eugeneskydiver] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

If you think about it, it makes a lot more sense to start from full flight if you're looking for speed (or distance). With a carving approach, you're building up speed as you go. Why start with less speed (ie- in brakes) then use part of your approach building that speed back up?

Now, if you're main focus is accuracy, then starting from brakes kind of slows the whole picture down. This, in theory, lets you spend more time with your setup, getting to the exact position you want to be, at the exact altitude you want (if you're good Wink.

This is basically the way I've been flying my Xaos (and X-fires before that, and Stilettos before that) from day one. IMO, its a function of what you're trying to accomplish...


ramon  (D 26115)

Dec 19, 2003, 9:31 AM
Post #9 of 38 (2245 views)
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Re: [eugeneskydiver] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

For a VX as opposed to a xaos I would like to be seeting up slowly in at least partial brakes so that I can get a nice easy accurate carve before the steeper part of the turn.

sometimes when setting up I would have a little too much speed and the riser pressure would be a lot harder and would throw off my turn. the canopy likes a very controlled turn or the riser pressure can be high enough to mess you up.

On the Comp Cobalt I don't have that problem as the pressure is always light, but my old VX definitely liked to be going a little slower to start the hook.

Can't speak for Xaos but I would think they are more like th cobalt as far as riser pressure.


kaerock  (D 27493)

Dec 19, 2003, 1:21 PM
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Re: [rigging65] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Each time you do a sharp or jerky movement you're introducing many different forces into the system, not necessarily in the direction you intend, making it less efficient. If you use smooth, easy movements going into the dive and during the dive, you'll have the most efficient swoop you and your canopy can achieve. A lot of speed can be lost by quickly snapping a canopy, causing and abrupt change in speed and direction. Remember: each force imposed on a system causes an equal force in the opposite direction. Most likely this reaction force isn't beneficial to your fastest possible swoop.

Analogy:
When you jam on your gas pedal in your car, your tires may not gain traction on the road initially, eventually they will gain traction and you will accelerate. If you apply gas more gradually you can keep traction the entire time while accelerating, beating the guy next to you burning his rubber :>

When you start your hook from breaks, is that really giving you the smoothest, most efficient path in the air to your final destination, accelerating the entire time? It certainly is a fun roller-coaster feeling!

-Rory


In reply to:
If you think about it, it makes a lot more sense to start from full flight if you're looking for speed (or distance). With a carving approach, you're building up speed as you go. Why start with less speed (ie- in brakes) then use part of your approach building that speed back up?

Now, if you're main focus is accuracy, then starting from brakes kind of slows the whole picture down. This, in theory, lets you spend more time with your setup, getting to the exact position you want to be, at the exact altitude you want (if you're good Wink.

This is basically the way I've been flying my Xaos (and X-fires before that, and Stilettos before that) from day one. IMO, its a function of what you're trying to accomplish...


base698  (D 23456)

Dec 19, 2003, 2:00 PM
Post #11 of 38 (2166 views)
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Re: [kaerock] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

I do what the moment requires... Some times if I'm a little short I may go into brakes so I can make my starting point before I start my turn. Other times I need a little rears before I start it. Depends on what you have to do to make the gates...

As for practically I think that starting in brakes does kill your airspeed but if you turn a little higher you can dive for longer and achieve the same speed. Optimally I like to be somewhat close to full flight though.


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Dec 19, 2003, 2:05 PM
Post #12 of 38 (2165 views)
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Re: Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

i've been kind of thinking, and my thinking may be off on this, but here it is.

i think weather you start in brakes or in full flight you will get the same speed out of it if you don't have to dig out. saying if you have the hook turn just right, then your speed coming out of either dive should be the same right?? that being said that you dive on a brakes approach may need to be set up higher than if you were in full flight.

i haven't ever tested this in any way, but i was sittin in class today thinking about it.

thoughts??


base698  (D 23456)

Dec 19, 2003, 2:08 PM
Post #13 of 38 (2159 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish I got to think about shit like that in class... I did all through college but it would have been nice in high school :)


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Dec 19, 2003, 2:11 PM
Post #14 of 38 (2157 views)
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Re: [base698] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I wish I got to think about shit like that in class... I did all through college but it would have been nice in high school :)

haha, hell the past couple of days i've been writing a paper on how to go about starting hook or carving turns for some of the newbies that will be wanting to start learning how to do them at the begining of next season. i have about 4 pages wrote already, and still have A LOT to talk about. and all of this has been done in class instead of the work i was supposed to be doing LaughLaugh

later


twnsnd  (D 25389)

Dec 19, 2003, 2:25 PM
Post #15 of 38 (2144 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally agree with this. Every canopy has a top speed, and it is reached at the bottom of the dive. If you did your turn correctly, you will reach this speed regardless of whether you started in brakes or not.


diveout  (B 1152)

Dec 19, 2003, 2:43 PM
Post #16 of 38 (2140 views)
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Re: [kaerock] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Brian-

If it makes any difference to you I've seen most of the xaos factory pilots set up in brakes. They're flying a wing very close to yours. They might vary how much brakes they use if they are trying for speed or distance vs. accuracy.


eugeneskydiver  (D License)

Dec 21, 2003, 6:55 PM
Post #17 of 38 (2027 views)
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Re: [diveout] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for everybody's opinions. Hopefully I'll be seeing you guys at the christmas boogie, 29-30th. Just look for the really young freeflyer with a yellow xaos.
Blue skies.
Bryan


Spizzzarko

Dec 26, 2003, 2:28 PM
Post #18 of 38 (1906 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Check it... Here's what I have learned from my li8mited experiences. A braked approach wil decrease a lot of the riser pressure and allw you to do more of a turn if you are a girlie man like me..... I have found though, that I get more power to my swoops with a 270 from full flight. I do the turn and then dive it with double fronts untill the pressure wants to pull the fronts out of my hands. I continue to let it fly in full flight. It actually speeds up in ful flight becauise there is no in-put deflecting the canopy. As it starts to plane out that's when I want to be entering my swoop. Some canopys plane out better than others so listen to your airspeed and when it starts to slow down then you have actually passed the point of the most speed. I also believe in getting small with your body. This will create less drag. Drag is not your friend, unless your a fat AFF instructor with a light student. That's all I have to sayt about that.


rhino  (D 22500)

Dec 26, 2003, 8:07 PM
Post #19 of 38 (1871 views)
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Re: [eugeneskydiver] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Crossfire2 at 2.0... Full flight...


twnsnd  (D 25389)

Dec 27, 2003, 10:23 AM
Post #20 of 38 (1841 views)
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Re: [rhino] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Fx 104 @ 2:1 in brakes because I need my fingers for other things too.Wink


rhino  (D 22500)

Dec 27, 2003, 10:47 AM
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Re: [twnsnd] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

It really helps wearing gloves.. Smile


Spizzzarko

Dec 27, 2003, 5:03 PM
Post #22 of 38 (1813 views)
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Re: [rhino] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Check it again...

I'm down here at lake wales filming the collegiate nationals. I'm lucky to get a few hooks in on the vx. It's so nicew to be back down here at sea level again. I have been doing the full flight approaches, and it's making a sizable difference in my swoops. I believe you get more POWER hooking it from full flight.

About the gloves...
I'll jump naked but I would have to wear gloves and shoes. I guess it's something ingrained from student status. It can be 120 degrees outside, but I'll still wear gloves.

That's all I have to say about that.


rhino  (D 22500)

Dec 28, 2003, 9:02 AM
Post #23 of 38 (1753 views)
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Re: [Spizzzarko] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll still wear gloves.

Same here.. They protect your hands in a big way.. I don't wear my wedding ring either.. I've seen fingers come off because of rings getting caught on doors..

Rhino


freeflypimp  (D 24205)

Dec 28, 2003, 12:27 PM
Post #24 of 38 (1736 views)
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Re: [Spizzzarko] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

To all you swoopers with questions on this subject, The most important reason for starting your swoop in full flight is not weather or not you get a longer swoop, because a long swoop can be produced from either situation if the pilot flies the recovery arc correctly. The real reason for this type of setup is so that you go into each turn in the same manner so that you can learn to be more accurate with your setup. If you go into each turn with a different airspeed because you are in brakes then every turn will have to be different in order to produce the desired result. If you go into every turn in full flight then every turn will be theoretically the same, as long as you are at the proper altitude when you initiate the turn. And being in full flight every time will also let you judge your set up better because your wing is descending at a constant rate. So try to always fly your approach in full flight unless traffic is a factor, and you will soon understand what I am talking about. Blue Skies and safe swoops.Smile


(This post was edited by freeflypimp on Dec 28, 2003, 12:33 PM)


Jumpalot

Dec 31, 2003, 8:02 AM
Post #25 of 38 (1661 views)
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Re: [eugeneskydiver] Starting hookturns in full flight or a braked aproach [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Just a theoretical question related to this topic.

To get the longest swoop, wouldn't you be better off doing two swoops?? (assuming you have the space to do it?).

That is, do one swoop at your normal starting altitude for your final swoop (ie. planing out & surfing at xx ft)... and then carry all that speed into your final swoop to come in for landing?? Or even pop into over to get a lot of downwards momentum into your turn?

Obviously it would be difficult to judge... but, just food for thought.

Ciao
Jumpalot


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