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AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC?

 


wayne  (D 633)

Dec 17, 2003, 3:34 AM
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AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? Can't Post

I have a friend (small, light girl) who had a scary experience recently while doing an AFF level3.

Her instructors chose not to give her weights and let her jump a rig with a BOC throw out PC system.

They released her while she was doing dummy pulls and she spun out of control and floated out of reach... they couldn't get back up to her.

She then panicked and tried to pull but couldn't - hard pull, so she went for her reserve.

Considering she was jumping a BOC and was spinning out of control while pulling, I think it was a blessing in disguise that she couldn't pull the main since throwing a PC while unstable could have resulted in a far worse situation.

So... when I was a student, all student rigs had spring loaded PC's. Is it common practice now to use throw outs for students?


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 17, 2003, 4:48 AM
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Re: [wayne] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is it common practice now to use throw outs for students?

Yes. When Roger Nelson did the research for the USPA to get a change to the BSRs to allow it, he presented documented video proof to the BOD of hundreds and hundreds of students over the course of a few years that had no different problems then what are incountered with a spring loaded PC. They occured less often, though.

You can have a hard pull on a ripcord/springloaded PC as well.

The floating and spinning wasn't the BOC's fault, as you know.

Quote:
I have a friend (small, light girl)

I think that could have something to do with it. Was the rig tested on the ground after the jump? Did someone try to see if the PC had monkey fisted in the BOC pouch? If that happened, did they track down the packer to see how he/she packed the PC to see if it was a PC packing error? etc.


skyyhi  (B 26847)

Dec 17, 2003, 6:01 AM
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Re: [wayne] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

As a current aff student, I can only say that I haven't had any problems with the pull-out p/c. Maintaining a good arch and being aware of body posture ensures no or little spin at pull time. . .


rigging65  (D 21921)

Dec 17, 2003, 8:28 AM
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Re: [wayne] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

To me, this is two separate problems.

The first: It doesn't sound like the correct Instructors were on the jump with this student. I'm a big guy, and I have a lot of range, but I know my limits. I game out the worst case scenario with each student, then make a decision if I can work with them. If they're super small and I think they might go flat, I'm not the right guy for the job. It's always a gamble with students, as any one of them can fool you. But going into the game already at a disadvantage is a bad move on the Instructor(s) part. I've seen more than one prideful AFF/I get hosed when they knew better...I've been there myself as well.

The second issue: Did the student do live pulls on the ground? It's always a great idea to do live pulls on the rig you're going to jump. I throw the student on a horizontal trainer and have them pull at least twice. It takes all of 30 seconds to do, and it'll let them know how it's going to feel. It might also alert you to the fact that they're having a problem. Unimpressed

As with most any incident, this seems to have been a chain of events. The chain stopped when the jumper used her training and kicked the reserve out. Way to go skydiver!


rendezvous  (C License)

Dec 17, 2003, 9:47 AM
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Re: [wayne] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Considering she was jumping a BOC and was spinning out of control while pulling, I think it was a blessing in disguise that she couldn't pull the main since throwing a PC while unstable could have resulted in a far worse situation.



If she was spinning flat how would a throw out make the situation far worse than a spring loaded PC ?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 17, 2003, 10:19 AM
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Re: [wayne] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

1. I started twelve years ago on a throwout rig; it's not all that new.

2. Ripcords can be BOC or ROL. PC's can be BOC or ROL.

3. Often, small women have problems with overly large rigs. The solution is to get a smaller rig; that's what we did.

4. If spinning face-to-earth, there's not much difference in deployment with the two systems. If she's back to earth there's some benefit to a ripcord.

5. It's the AFF-JM's job to stay with the student - not to weight the student to stay with them. Weights increase injuries during hard landings.


wayne  (D 633)

Dec 18, 2003, 10:04 AM
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Re: [billvon] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

To be honest, I wasn't there to witness this event and am relying on my friends account of what happened, so I'm making no judgements here.

I haven't been involved in student training for a long time (10 years) so just wanted some clarification on current methods.

Whatever the AFF instructors decisions, weights, no weights, baggy jumpsuit etc. they should not lose their student.

I do find it interesting though that on a previous jump they (same DZ different instructors) saw fit to give her weights because it was windy and they thought that would help her penetrate under canopy... Again I wasn't there so not my place to judge but I do agree that giving a 45kg girl 5kg of lead and a 10kg rig is likely to increase the risk of injury on landing regardless of conditions....

As far as throw out or spring is concerned, I guess either way has it's merits and shortcomings, so it's upto the instructor in the end.

Thanks for the feedback,

Cheers
Wayne


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 18, 2003, 10:30 AM
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Re: [wayne] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Letting that student get away was the product of two things: not "dressing for success", and not staying close enough to the student to stop the problem before she got away from them.

I don't see BOC versus ripcord/spring-loaded PC as the issue here. I also don't see any reason why deploying at the correct altitude while spinning is a bad idea. The three pull priorities ALWAYS remain the same: Pull, Pull at the correct altitude, pull at the correct altitude with stability.

I am wondering if the instructors had this student do both vertical and horizontal dive flows, including live throws of the pilot chute. As was earlier stated: it only takes a few seconds to re-stow the PC.

Bill is also correct in stating that the correct thing to do for students who have rigs hanging down off their ass is to give them properly fitting gear. One size does definitely not fit all.

Chuck
AFF-I (among other things)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 18, 2003, 10:34 AM
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Re: [wayne] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

> . . saw fit to give her weights because it was windy and they thought
>that would help her penetrate under canopy...

A better idea would be to give her a smaller canopy that would better penetrate the wind. We had a Triathalon 190 for such purposes; light women seemed to do better under it. (If it was windy enough that there was a risk of them backing up under _that_, of course, students shouldn't be in the air anyway.)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 18, 2003, 10:41 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Letting that student get away was the product of two things: not "dressing for success", and not staying close enough to the student to stop the problem before she got away from them.

Exactly.Cool

Fly tight when you expect a problem, fly even tighter when you don't. A light leg grip takes nothing away from the student's learning, but can save the day if things go south.

Derek


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 19, 2003, 8:15 PM
Post #11 of 13 (800 views)
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Re: [wayne] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

So... when I was a student, all student rigs had spring loaded PC's. Is it common practice now to use throw outs for students?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Throw-outs for students has been standard in Canada for the last 20 years.

As for main ripcords ... they were in fashion when I was a student - back in 1979 - and I still have the facial scars to prove it!


sducoach  (D License)

Dec 19, 2003, 8:26 PM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

Chuck hit this one on the nose.

ALWAYS dress UP!! Meaning, when in doubt, more drag!

Level 3 or Cat C release is by mutual agreement between the I's. It was probably evident that the fall rate was a problem and a release was not called for but, WE were not there, were we?

Also, a rig that is too large can aggravate heading control problems by shifting around on the back of the student.

Blues,

J.E.


Brodes

Dec 20, 2003, 3:43 AM
Post #13 of 13 (789 views)
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Re: [sducoach] AFF Rig: Springloaded or throw out PC? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that here in Aus (or SA at least) we only use spring loaded AFF rigs, and i was discussing the difference between the two with a guy packing his rig this afternoon.



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