Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress...

 

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pds  (D 27641)

Dec 15, 2003, 12:09 PM
Post #1 of 99 (2817 views)
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lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... Can't Post

because she will NEVER not pull. when i start to formulate a response i get really confused and angry and sad. help me out here guys.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 15, 2003, 12:16 PM
Post #2 of 99 (2776 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

Does she have a license? If not, then she is breaking the BSR's. If so, then I can't argue with her since I jumped nearly 18 years without an AAD. I still only have on in one of my rigs.


hookitt  (D License)

Dec 15, 2003, 12:27 PM
Post #3 of 99 (2759 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

Some times you really can't formulate a response. The information has been given.

Give a few months. She's new and will form her own opinions that are subject to change.

I did over 1000 jumps prior to installing one and haven't had one this entire season. I condone the use but currently am not an example of a cypres user.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Dec 15, 2003, 12:30 PM
Post #4 of 99 (2753 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

She doesn't hear of no pull fatalities BECAUSE of AAD's. They used to be a significant portion of yearly deaths. Some (many?) because they were having too much fun and skydived all the way to the ground. A good friend was knocked unconscious on exit and died. (1985) I've seen lot and lots of RW break off at 1000 or less. Audibles have helped, and so have AAD's. I too have 1500 plus jumps without an AAD, not because I didn't want one but because I didn't want an FXC 12000. Skydiving with out an AAD is the one of the few situations where if you do NOTHING you will die. Skydiving with an AAD is different. You've no longer committed suicide unless you change your mind. All she needs to do is look at the lists of Cypres saves to see how many people who would NEVER NOT pull are alive in spite of themselves.

I don't much care if someone choses not to use one. That's the sport I grew up in. But now there isn't a need to take that risk each and every jump unless you want to. Nobody ever wants their AAD to fire, but they do.

If she doesn't want one fine, but not because she will never not pull. There are hundreds of dead skydivers who thought the same thing, including my friend.

OK Rant off. Sorry


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Dec 15, 2003, 12:31 PM
Post #5 of 99 (2753 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

You could say it's for in case she gets knocked out on exit or in freefall. If that happens, the only outcomes are: 1. regain consciousness and pull in a very short time or bounce, 2. don't regain consciousness and bounce, or 3. don't regain consciousness, have an AAD, and probably just hit under canopy at half-brakes no-flare, which can be either slightly or much more survivable than going in.


headoverheels  (D License)

Dec 15, 2003, 12:36 PM
Post #6 of 99 (2742 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
It's better to have one than not, at any experience level, in my opinion. Many people, whether newbies or not, simply haven't seen enough situations to really grasp what can happen, or have the truly naive attitude that it can't happen to them. I'm not someone who would hesitate to jump without one, if mine were out for repair or I wanted to try a rig that didn't have one. I would not be totally comfortable about that, having jumped many years before the first reasonably reliable AAD made it to market. However, I normally do have a functioning AAD in my rig, and think it was a very worthwhile way to spend my money.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 15, 2003, 12:40 PM
Post #7 of 99 (2729 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You could say it's for in case she gets knocked out on exit or in freefall

This is really the reason people say they use them , but in truth, it very rarely is the case.

Most time, its a case of loss of alti awareness.

And as far as your lowbie goes PDS, its her call is she's licenced.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 15, 2003, 12:46 PM
Post #8 of 99 (2712 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

>because she will NEVER not pull. when i start to formulate a response
>i get really confused and angry and sad. help me out here guys.

Remind her that she doesn't need a reserve either. She should just plan not to pack any mals. (Note - this angle doesn't work on BASE jumpers.)

But seriously, it's up to her. She'll probably make it through her entire jumping career without needing an AAD; thousands of people did (and do.)


cruzit  (D 17907)

Dec 15, 2003, 1:00 PM
Post #9 of 99 (2689 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

While it's up to the individual if she is licensed, jumping with an AAD just may save your life sometime. From personal experience I have been in two situations which turned out OK, but were potentially very dangerous without an AAD. On one occasion, I was hit in the mouth by an altimeter on exit (pre-full face helmet days) and was knocked out for a few seconds. When I came to, I was tumbling out of control and had lost about 2,000' feet. On another occasion, I was exiting right behind the base on a 20-way and was kicked in the helmet on exit. It almost removed my helmet from my head as I was exiting. After that, I bought an AAD.

In both cases, the worst case scenario didn't occur, but it certainly could have. I equate having an AAD to wearing a seat belt in a car...if you have the safety device available, it's crazy not to use it.


Nightingale  (B 26984)

Dec 15, 2003, 1:04 PM
Post #10 of 99 (2682 views)
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Re: [cruzit] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

my AFF instructor told me about his impact with the tail end of the plane. It didn't knock him out, but it easily could have (or worse!) that story sold me on helmets and AADs.


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Dec 15, 2003, 1:21 PM
Post #11 of 99 (2667 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

I had the same attitude when I started. I figured if I was knocked out, I wouldn't feel it anyway. My first 375 jumps were cyrpes-less.

Now I value my life a little more. And I had a few of my own experiences that kinda enlightened me.

I've been knocked out twice in freefall. One lasted only a couple of seconds. I continued to skydive as usual. Then next put me out until my audilbe went off. I still pulled on my own accord, but it sure was nice to know that I had a backup....


Surf

Dec 15, 2003, 1:51 PM
Post #12 of 99 (2627 views)
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Re: [GravityGirl] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

Print out a list of incidents where the person lost alti awareness, hand it to her and say these people probably thought the same as you.

I had a friend knocked out in RW a number of years back. IIRC a skygod in her group went after her, pulled her, and she came to under canopy.

Does your lowbie always fly with skygods, ready to pull her at a moments notice?


CrazyDave  (Student)

Dec 15, 2003, 2:21 PM
Post #13 of 99 (2601 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
because she will NEVER not pull. when i start to formulate a response i get really confused and angry and sad. help me out here guys.

how much is the cypress2 ?


helldog  (D 28666)

Dec 15, 2003, 2:29 PM
Post #14 of 99 (2590 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

Its your call (if your licensed) but...
You should at least do a little more research into the scenarios in which an AAD will save your life. Some have been mentioned above. Also read the incident reports over the last 10 years or so and you'll see that several people have been saved by their AAD... and many more possibly would have if they had one in their rig.
Bottom line is don't make a gut decision on this one.
Do the research and make an informed decision.
Blue ones
Jim


Ron

Dec 15, 2003, 2:29 PM
Post #15 of 99 (2589 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

If she has a license its her right....

I ahve learned one thing and that is you can't make people do what you think they should.

New skydivers are always trying to get whuffos to jump and they just get pissed off at them.

I try to keep people safe under canopy...And they just get pissed at me (Until they hook it in and tell me they wish they had listened).

She is just gonna get mad at you and stop listening to you.


cesslon  (Student)

Dec 15, 2003, 3:22 PM
Post #16 of 99 (2540 views)
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Re: [Ron] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

the instructor i had on day 1 of stage 1 of my aff has over 13500 jumps and we were talking about cypress's and talking about how less experienced jumpers have tracked into people and knocked them self out

and i said it could quite easily be the very experienced jumper that is the 1 that gets knocked out , and he said thats why he uses a cypress and said some d00d once had 12000 jumps and got KO'd by a lesser experienced jumper and went in

so no matter how good you *think* you are and think you wont crash into some1 else remember a lesser experienced jumper could knee you in the back off the head and you wont ever know you were hit as you'll be out cold tilll ya impact with the earth


jerry81

Dec 15, 2003, 3:45 PM
Post #17 of 99 (2522 views)
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Re: [pds] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
because she will NEVER not pull. when i start to formulate a response i get really confused and angry and sad. help me out here guys.
Have you tried explaining why you feel that way when someone refuses to use a cypres? I have issues about using seatbelts in the back of a car that are in a way probably similar to yours, but in the end you have to let people decide for themselves. Still, the decision of this jumper does not sound like an informed one. If she listens to your personal reasons, plus all the facts people have suggested you present to her, and still chooses to jump without a cypres, then there's nothing more you can do (other than hope she'll change her mind), harsh as that may sound.




Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 15, 2003, 4:05 PM
Post #18 of 99 (2510 views)
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Re: [cesslon] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

>remember a lesser experienced jumper could knee you in the back
> off the head and you wont ever know you were hit as you'll be out
> cold tilll ya impact with the earth . . .

Well, someone could cut you off under canopy and cause you to turn hard at 50 feet - but I don't see many people buying large canopies to save their lives when that happens. And that's a LOT more likely than getting knocked out.

Cypreses save people when they forget to pull, primarily. People don't like to think they are buying one because they might screw up, so they buy one in case someone else knocks them out. And most of the time it saves them when they just plain forget to pull. Which is fine, but it doesn't mean that getting knocked out is more likely just because people buy them for that reason.

Indeed, if you ever hear someone say "Hey, that's why I have a cypres!" - the cypres might just be making them less, rather than more, safe. If you get on loads that you otherwise might question because of the feeling of security your cypres gives you, then you're putting yourself in harm's way. And no cypres in the world will save your spine when a newbie corks under you, and cypreses are not notably good at landing you survivably under a tiny reserve if you're unconscious.

They're good backups to your altitude awareness, and in general they do far more good than harm. To say that you _need_ one in case you get knocked out isn't really reality, though. Jumpers need a large canopy, and canopy control training, and RW skills, and spotting skills far more than they need a cypres.


cesslon  (Student)

Dec 15, 2003, 4:21 PM
Post #19 of 99 (2494 views)
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Re: [billvon] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

so bill von
im guessing your 1 of the people who are to good for a cypress ?


Nightingale  (B 26984)

Dec 15, 2003, 4:25 PM
Post #20 of 99 (2490 views)
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Re: [cesslon] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

he's got CYPRES listed as his AAD under his profile.


eddytheeagle  (D 26435)

Dec 15, 2003, 4:58 PM
Post #21 of 99 (2465 views)
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Re: [cesslon] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so bill von
im guessing your 1 of the people who are to good for a cypress ?

Basically, billvon is just saying that
1: A lot of people state they have a cypres because of the (rather small) chance they are knocked unconcious

2: Most people how are saved by their cypres were fully concious, and probably screwed up in one way or the other

3: There are other things, skills, etc can save your skin, and it's these you're more likely to use at some point of your skydiving career.

I totally argree with these points, but I'm also a strong `believer' in aad's, just because people do screw-up sometimes. That's the reason I have one.

Oh, btw, I would jump without one if I have to send in mine for some reason...


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Dec 15, 2003, 5:16 PM
Post #22 of 99 (2456 views)
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Re: [eddytheeagle] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
so bill von
im guessing your 1 of the people who are to good for a cypress ?

Basically, billvon is just saying that
1: A lot of people state they have a cypres because of the (rather small) chance they are knocked unconcious

2: Most people how are saved by their cypres were fully concious, and probably screwed up in one way or the other

3: There are other things, skills, etc can save your skin, and it's these you're more likely to use at some point of your skydiving career.

I totally argree with these points, but I'm also a strong `believer' in aad's, just because people do screw-up sometimes. That's the reason I have one.

Oh, btw, I would jump without one if I have to send in mine for some reason...

I haven't had to make this hard decision, but I feel I would not jump without a good AAD. (I have 49 jumps right now, so I'm obviously still pretty green.) I know I can beg to borrow a rig, or I can pay to rent a rig, or I can stay on the ground. Overly cautious? I'm sure. But that's my choice.

I'm going to have a Cypres for the reasons just like billvon explains: 1. I'll say it's in case I get knocked out and 2. it'll be in case I screw up. Then I will continue to work very hard NOT to need it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 15, 2003, 5:27 PM
Post #23 of 99 (2446 views)
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Re: [cesslon] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

>im guessing your 1 of the people who are to good for a cypress ?

?? I made about 1000 jumps without one, 2600 with. I've been on jumps where I was very glad I did NOT have one. I have yet to be on a jump where I'm glad I had it. I have two rigs; at any given time there will be zero, one or two cypreses available to put in them, and I'm fine with that.

I may well someday need a cypres. Reasons in order of probability:

1. Unwillingness to give up on a student. It's a problem of mine, and is one of the main reasons I won't jump with a student that doesn't have an AAD.

2. I may forget to pull, get so wrapped up in whatever I'm doing that I just plain forget. Hasn't happened yet but you never know.

3. I may have a gear failure that prevents me from getting my reserve out. I've seen riggers pack people 50lb pulls on reserve ripcords. Could I get such a ripcord out? Probably, but again, you never know.

4. (note this one comes last.) I may get hit very hard some day, and the cypres may improve my chances of survival a bit.

If any of those things happen and are uncorrectable a cypres may save me, or it may not. If I don't have one I might well die. I'm OK with that. Since I started during a time where cypreses were not available, and AAD's were more likely to kill you than save you, I accepted that a long time ago.


Shark  (D 24499)

Dec 15, 2003, 5:37 PM
Post #24 of 99 (2443 views)
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Re: [cesslon] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so bill von
im guessing your 1 of the people who are to good for a cypress ?

Sometimes it is difficult to convey a message on-line. Did you read his last few sentences? Quite possibly, after you gain more experience than your two jumps you will understand a little better.

Quote:
They're good backups to your altitude awareness, and in general they do far more good than harm.

Backups, not to be relied on and should not be substituted for proper emergency procedures and altitude awareness.


cesslon  (Student)

Dec 15, 2003, 7:12 PM
Post #25 of 99 (2416 views)
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Re: [Shark] lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress... [In reply to] Can't Post

my reasoning is

you dont relie on "back up saftey devices" but ya dont simply do without them because you think the odd's of things like getting KO'd are slim
you could also jump out and have a stroke or a heart atack
people of all ages have strokes

i might not be very experienced but id tell this woman that odd's are slim of her even using it but thats like buying a car with a air bag
all my friends have 1 but no1 is yet to use it
they may still die in a crash with a air bag but it is better saftey then none
and no1 i knows drives down a road and sees a truck pull out and think "i wont bother breaking , i got a air bag"


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