Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
RSL or no?

 

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njasshole  (A License)

Dec 7, 2003, 7:57 PM
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RSL or no? Can't Post

CrazyOK.... I recently got my A-license, and I'm ready to get some gear. Im wondering whether or not I should jump with an RSL. Ive read a few incident reports where RSLs caused dual deployments, and, in some cases, double mals. In some instances, the jumper would have had plenty of altitude to completely cutaway before manually releasing the reserve Do the advantages of jumping with an RSL outweigh the possible disadvantages? Ill be using a cypres for backup at minimal altitude. Thanks everyone!


Jimbo  (D License)

Dec 7, 2003, 8:03 PM
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Re: [njasshole] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Search the forums, all of them. The information you seek is already here. There's also some good info the Safety section of this site.

-
Jim


(This post was edited by Jimbo on Dec 7, 2003, 8:03 PM)


champu  (D 28302)

Dec 7, 2003, 8:57 PM
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Re: [njasshole] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
CrazyOK.... I recently got my A-license, and I'm ready to get some gear. Im wondering whether or not I should jump with an RSL.
On any forum there exist what are sometimes referred to as "Holy Wars". These debates are perennial and tend, rather quickly, to become rote.

You have just stumbled upon one such of the afore-mentioned.

A search for RSL advantages/disadvantages should keep you in reading material for quite some time.


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Dec 7, 2003, 10:23 PM
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Re: [njasshole] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Ive read a few incident reports where RSLs caused dual deployments, and, in some cases, double mals.

There are far more incident reports of jumpers going in without sufficient time to get the second handle.


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Dec 8, 2003, 12:02 AM
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Re: [njasshole] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think RSLs are like airbags. They kill fewer than they save. Net result is fewer deaths overall, and some people die of a cause that didn't used to exist.


vt1977  (D License)

Dec 8, 2003, 3:55 AM
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Re: [njasshole] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

IMHO the RSL decision is a personal one. Do a search and find out as much info as you can, weigh up the pros and cons and then make an informed decision.

This may help: http://www.dropzone.com/...thequotReserve.shtml

Vicki


Ron

Dec 8, 2003, 4:12 AM
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Re: [njasshole] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I recently got my A-license, and I'm ready to get some gear. Im wondering whether or not I should jump with an RSL. Ive read a few incident reports where RSLs caused dual deployments, and, in some cases, double mals. In some instances, the jumper would have had plenty of altitude to completely cutaway before manually releasing the reserve Do the advantages of jumping with an RSL outweigh the possible disadvantages? Ill be using a cypres for backup at minimal altitude. Thanks everyone

OK RSL's have both saved and killed people.

They have saved more than they killed..But for me a saftey device that when properly used can kill you...Is not such a great saftey device.

There are folks that swear by them...And swear against them....I'm kinda on both sides.

Do your homework. Find out how they can help, and how they can hurt you.

My personal feelings on it is this...It will only help you if you do something really stupid. Like forget to pull the reserve after cutting away. I don't know why people do this, but they do.

I think better and more frequent training is a better way to deal with this than a device. I don't like how an RSL takes out the choice of when to deploy the reserve, and in doing so can cause problems including killing you.

That being said sometimes people just freakout....Now I take the stance that if you are the type of person that feels they need all these neat things to be "safe" Then you are not safe at all.

The one place and time I can see an RSL is for new jumpers...Jumpers who have not had a reserve ride.

So my standard line is "Get one and use it. While you are using it learn as much as you can about it...And make your own opinion. It will either scare the shit out of you, or give you a warm fuzzy feeling...After your first reserve ride...I see no need for it however"

I have not had one since jump #12...And I will not wear one.


jb092  (D 19160)

Dec 8, 2003, 4:59 AM
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Re: [njasshole] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

My opinion is not to use one, but I have a high performance canopy. I would tell you to use one untill you have the experience of a few hundred jumps before you decide.


billbooth  (D 3546)

Dec 8, 2003, 6:13 AM
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Re: [jb092] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

The more high performance your canopy, the more you NEED an RSL.


jb092  (D 19160)

Dec 8, 2003, 6:41 AM
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Re: [billbooth] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill The wonderfull thing about opinions is everyone can have one. Your opinion is to have one mine is not to have one.


grega  (D 100020)

Dec 8, 2003, 6:44 AM
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Re: [billbooth] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

why is that? Shocked

The more HP canopy you have, the more likely you'll cutaway in an unstable position. With rsl you don't have time to get stable.
And the more HP canopy you have the more experienced you are, so i guess you won't forget to pull the reserve handle.

So please explain why you think so?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 8, 2003, 6:54 AM
Post #12 of 61 (3444 views)
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Re: [grega] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

>why is that?

The more HP the canopy, the easier it is for the canopy to open in a situation that has it pointed at the ground and is spinning you around. Pointing at the ground on most HP canopies is a high speed malfunction and needs addressed ASAP.

I don't know what everyone is worried about "getting stable" for. As long as you're not tucked up in a ball trying to flip youself its extremely likely that any orientation will result in a clean reserve launch. You don't need to be in a perfect boxman to use the reserve. I need to post some video some time of one of my friends having a cutaway on a spinning canopy. The RSL took care of the reserve before he even had a chance to think "get stable". He was on his back as he cutaway and there were no problems.

At under 500 jumps would you say you are more experienced on a HP canopy then anyone that would not happen to pull their reserve handle? Some extremely experienced people have spent their entire lives trying to "get stable" after a cutaway and ran out of time.


DALAILAMA  (D 20004)

Dec 8, 2003, 7:52 AM
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Re: [grega] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Aah!
Thus the reason for .........The Sky Hook!


KellyF  (D 13826)

Dec 8, 2003, 8:05 AM
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Re: [njasshole] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ive read a few incident reports where RSLs caused dual deployments
The only time an RSL will cause a dual deployment is if the RSL is built improperly (too short). With a properly manufactured RSL system, the only time the reserve will be activated is after the main canopy has been cutaway.


Ron

Dec 8, 2003, 10:09 AM
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Re: [KellyF] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The only time an RSL will cause a dual deployment is if the RSL is built improperly (too short). With a properly manufactured RSL system, the only time the reserve will be activated is after the main canopy has been cutaway

How about a broken riser? Its happened.

But there are other issue with RSL's...And if folks want to read about them....Then do a search.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 8, 2003, 10:14 AM
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Re: [Ron] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

>How about a broken riser? Its happened.

That was a problem back when mini-risers without reinforcement were first introduced; riser breakage is now extremely rare. It might be an issue, though, especially on old or poorly maintained gear. One way around this is a collins lanyard, a device that forces a clean breakaway if the RSL riser breaks or releases prematurely.


Ron

Dec 8, 2003, 10:15 AM
Post #17 of 61 (3347 views)
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Re: [billbooth] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The more high performance your canopy, the more you NEED an RSL.

I am VERY interested on your take on this Bill.


Ron

Dec 8, 2003, 10:24 AM
Post #18 of 61 (3338 views)
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Re: [billvon] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That was a problem back when mini-risers without reinforcement were first introduced; riser breakage is now extremely rare. It might be an issue, though, especially on old or poorly maintained gear. One way around this is a collins lanyard, a device that forces a clean breakaway if the RSL riser breaks or releases prematurely.

True, but it still is or could be an issue. And at least one of the fatalities was not on mini risers...more like Tandem risers.

Anyway it is an example of how an RSL can cause an issue that makes things worse.

And the answer to bad training is not to add a cool tool. And the answer to a bad tool is not another cool tool.


kallend  (D 23151)

Dec 8, 2003, 10:32 AM
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Re: [Ron] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The one place and time I can see an RSL is for new jumpers...Jumpers who have not had a reserve ride.

.

Do you mean inexperienced jumpers who have not had a reserve ride, or inexperienced jumpers AND jumpers who have not had a reserve ride? I know someone with >4,000 jumps who hasn't had a reserve ride.


Ron

Dec 8, 2003, 11:54 AM
Post #20 of 61 (3303 views)
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Re: [kallend] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you mean inexperienced jumpers who have not had a reserve ride, or inexperienced jumpers AND jumpers who have not had a reserve ride? I know someone with >4,000 jumps who hasn't had a reserve ride.

If you read my whole post, and not just a line or two of it...

Quote:
So my standard line is "Get one and use it. While you are using it learn as much as you can about it...And make your own opinion. It will either scare the shit out of you, or give you a warm fuzzy feeling...After your first reserve ride...I see no need for it however"


KellyF  (D 13826)

Dec 8, 2003, 12:52 PM
Post #21 of 61 (3286 views)
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Re: [Ron] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The more high performance your canopy, the more you NEED an RSL.

I am VERY interested on your take on this Bill.
PhreeZone hit the nail on the head, and I'm sure Bill will say the same thing (since I talked to him about it a couple of weeks ago). A HP spinner is a high speed malfunction, and should be treated as such.

You have a point with the broken riser scenario, and Billvon pretty much covered that base. If jumping gear made within the past 5 years, the chance of having a broken riser is pretty darn slim. RWS seems to agree since they started making RSL's available with ty-17 risers in '98.


firstime  (B 28972)

Dec 8, 2003, 5:02 PM
Post #22 of 61 (3245 views)
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Re: [njasshole] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

great question,I am also new w/55 jumps. I just bought new equipment and opted for the RSL. I
just listened to alot of people then made my decision
This issue is a 50/50 and very good PROS & CONS.
Well here is what I thought.... I have a better chance
of having a brain fart then other more experienced
guys. Please dont wait for the answer you want to
hear, listen...listen...read...read. Try to think of your
strong points as apposed to the weak ones then go
from there. This question is like asking a lawyer for
a yes or no answer..


WrongWay  (D 27371)

Dec 9, 2003, 5:08 AM
Post #23 of 61 (3197 views)
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Re: [njasshole] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't take my word for this, as I don't feel like being responsible for your life or death, but I personally don't like RSL for the reasons you listed above. I don't jump one, I don't want one, and I don't ever see myself buying one. IMHO, they're not good. But who knows, maybe you'll like'em.


grega  (D 100020)

Dec 9, 2003, 6:12 AM
Post #24 of 61 (3185 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure the reserve will deploy just fine in any position most of the time. though i have heard of spun up reserves. If i have any knowledge, it's easier to end up with twisted lines when deploying unstable, especialy under moderately loaded reserve.And i sure don't wanna end up 500 feet above the ground with unsteerable reserve, because i'd have line twists.

I've seen reserves deployed on back, and it took at least one or two more seconds before the reserve came out of the freebag. I think anyone experienced enough can get stable in 2 seconds, to safely open the reserve.

I understand your post and i agree and don't agree with you. Like it's been said, some like RSL some don't. I don't.

I don't consider myself experienced with the jump numbers i have at all. Knowledge is one thing, experience is something else. We're talking so it's theory and knowledge, and you need those to gain experience safely. But some people even if they have experience, doesn't mean they'll react better/safer than someone that has less experience. I, for example, wouldn't give my canopy for a test jump, to many people, that have more jumps (experience) then i have.

Just my opinion


(This post was edited by grega on Dec 9, 2003, 6:14 AM)


happythoughts  (D License)

Dec 9, 2003, 6:24 AM
Post #25 of 61 (3176 views)
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Re: [firstime] RSL or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Try to think of your
strong points as apposed to the weak ones then go
from there.

Everybody has an opinion, me too. However, there are people who have tremendous experience in the sport, listen to them, listen to your local S&TA. When Bill Booth throws his opinion in, listen carefully.


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