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Question about Racer rigs

 

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jumpinfarmer  (C 36122)

Dec 2, 2003, 7:20 PM
Post #1 of 79 (2538 views)
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     Question about Racer rigs  

I was told by another jumper not to buy a Racer. He said they were hard to pack and maintane. Is this true? I see a lot of used Racers for sale and wonder if I should consider one or not.


towerrat  (D 28189)

Dec 2, 2003, 7:28 PM
Post #2 of 79 (2514 views)
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     Re: [jumpinfarmer] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

 { getting out ten foot pole}
I personally feel there are more user friendly rigs out there. I also know of someone having serious complications because of a rigging mistake made on a racer.It ended up being a cypress save.
Edited to add: If your rigger is familiar with the system, you should have no problems. I just think there are better options.
All oppinions are just that


(This post was edited by towerrat on Dec 2, 2003, 7:33 PM)


Jimbo  (D License)

Dec 2, 2003, 7:30 PM
Post #3 of 79 (2512 views)
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     Re: [jumpinfarmer] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

 
The other jumper knows not what he is talking about.

There's nothing wrong with a Racer.

To respond to Randy's post: A rigging mistake could result in a Cypres fire, or worse, on ANY and EVERY rig. Don't let that scare you away. You should however check with your rigger before you buy any rig. If he can't pack it it won't be of much use to you.

-
Jim


(This post was edited by Jimbo on Dec 2, 2003, 7:37 PM)


Miami  (D 17626)

Dec 2, 2003, 8:12 PM
Post #4 of 79 (2483 views)
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     Re: [jumpinfarmer] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Who ever told you that about racers was dead wrong. You should certainly consider a racer if you are looking to buy gear. Just make sure you get it checked out by your rigger, as you should with any used rig you plan on purchasing.

I personally have jumped nothing but racers since '96, and will never jump anything but racers for the rest of my skydiving days (except for the V3 they make me jump at work....grrr).

If your rigger claims they cannot pack a racer I would question their ability to pack anything...there are not any cosmic anomalies hidden in the reserve pack tray.

Anyway...hope this helps!


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Dec 2, 2003, 8:12 PM
Post #5 of 79 (2481 views)
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     Re: [jumpinfarmer] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

There are two types of people in skydiving. Those who jump Racers and those who think they have a comfortable rig. While old racers might have some issues, the newer ones are just as good as anything else out there. I jump a 2K3 and it's velcroless and freefly friendly. Before that I jumped a Racer Elite that I've had for over 7 years with no problems be it FF, RW or Birdman . People like to knock the fact that older Racers use velcro and that some riggers are too damn lazy to be proficient at packing the reserve. You will not find a more comfortable rig out there than the Racer. But to answer your question, no they are not hard to pack or maintain. No more so than any other rig on the market.

Fact of the matter is that Jump Shack actually builds some of the other companies components or assembles a good deal for those other companies. They also manufacture components used throughout the skydiving industry.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Dec 2, 2003, 9:05 PM
Post #6 of 79 (2466 views)
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     Re: [LouDiamond] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Scott... I'm seeing that you are now jumping an all Jumpshack Rig. Are you now a sponsored jumper?


D22369  (D 22369)

Dec 2, 2003, 11:20 PM
Post #7 of 79 (2446 views)
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     Re: [jumpinfarmer] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

What would make it more difficult to maintain just because its a racer? I have a reflex with over 1000 jumps on it and it is a racer style design, still in great shape, as for hard to pack, are you speaking of the reserve? if so a knowledgeable rigger should have no problems packing it for you.
Some of the older ones did have a strange closing sequence for the main, something like bottom - left-right-top or something like that (memory fails me)

Roy


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Dec 3, 2003, 5:39 AM
Post #8 of 79 (2398 views)
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     Re: [D22369] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

There is a HUGE difference between the reserve pack style of the Reflex and the Racer. The only thing they have in common is they are a poptop. Believe it or not but there are some riggers out there that have issues making a Racer repack look correct and a lot can't set the pop top correctly.

The rigs are very comfortable, but ask yourr rigger some questions about the rig and get the answer to why they use red cables and the rest of the industry uses the yellow cables. Also do the pricing on the difference between the 1 pin and the 2 pin cypres the Racer needs. Also ask around and get a few riggers opinions of using rubberbands on the reserve vs a safety stow. There are major differences between the Racer and the rest of the industry. If you are happy with the answers that Jumpshack has then be happy with the rig Smile


Harksaw  (C 33932)

Dec 3, 2003, 5:40 AM
Post #9 of 79 (2399 views)
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     Re: [LouDiamond] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

On a side note, is there any benefit to a two-pin reserve? Do the flaps open further or something?

Edit: I did my homework, and here's what Jumpshack says:

". Hasn't the new Reflex improved on your design by using only one pin to close the reserve?

Not at all. Jump Shack has had a patent for several years on the one pin, and made a very conscious decision not to market it. We developed, tested, and jumped a number of versions of the one pin pop top and actually rejected the design used on the Reflex years ago. One pin pop tops have a tendency toward excessive ripcord pull force. The Tear Drop rig has this flaw, and is, therefore, not TSO certifiable. The one pin pop top is susceptible to tampering- a half twist of the pop top hat will double an already unacceptably high ripcord pull force. There is, in fact, a significant loss of performance when the pilotchute is retained with one loop, as opposed to two. There are a number of failings in the one pin pop top concept - but the main shortcoming is the additional weight of the reserve pilotchute caused by the necessitated reinforcement across the top of the spring. Tests were conducted where the pilotchute from a Tear Drop container actually fell away from a jumper in a cutaway situation. The metal reinforcement in the top of the pilotchute caused it to have such mass, that it accelerated with the jumper for almost three seconds before inflating. In that period of time, a Racer could deploy its reserve almost twice. Having one pin does not make for a better or more functional product. So why does it exist? We can't really say. Safety is, and has always been, the number one priority at Jump Shack. Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it. "


(This post was edited by Harksaw on Dec 3, 2003, 6:29 AM)


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Dec 3, 2003, 6:24 AM
Post #10 of 79 (2377 views)
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     Re: [Harksaw] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Quote:
On a side note, is there any benefit to a two-pin reserve?

For one, the reserve pins are located along the wearers back so there is less likely chance of causing a reserve pin to be pushed out while sitting down or bumping into things.You won't find better protected reserve pins. The two pin reserve is IMO more secure which is also why it is used on Para-Flights MC-4 Military rig as well. Like anything, there are pros and cons but in the long run it's 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other.

Quote:
Do the flaps open further or something?

There are no flaps covering the pop top/reserve pilot chute on the Racer(or reflex). All other manufacturers either use a pop top or semi pop top and place it under flaps. Of course this means that the spring in the pilot chute has to push through all those flaps before it is in the air. To overcome this some manufacturers have insane springs in their reserve pilot chutes. While there are differences in the way many things are done in the skydiving industry and not everyone can agree on them the bottom line is that safety is paramount. Ultimately, it comes down to you the wearer. Assess your needs, likes and dislikes and decide which best suits you. IMO you can't go wrong with a Racer especially for comfort and fit.


NightJumper  (D License)

Dec 3, 2003, 6:44 AM
Post #11 of 79 (2367 views)
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     Re: [Harksaw] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

The red cables are nylon coated vs. the yellow cables that are lolon coated. The maintenance on the nylon cables is just keeping them clean where on the lolon you should clean and oil them monthly which most skydiver dont. Also the pull force is reduced 50% on average with nylon.

The cost difference on the Cypress is about $150

The benefit of the two pin reserve pilot chute is reduced pressure distribution on the pins and tamper prevention of the hat (the hat can not be twisted on a two pin system) The externally mounted reserve pilot chute provides for direct deployment of the pilot chute into the air stream without having to push any flaps out of the way.

As to the reserve, Jump Shack uses a speed bag where every stow is a locking stow to help prevent line dump/bag strip and rubber bands to prevent bag lock since the force of the pilot chute will break a rubber band but will not break a bungee cord.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 3, 2003, 7:14 AM
Post #12 of 79 (2353 views)
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     Re: [NightJumper] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Quote:
The red cables are nylon coated vs. the yellow cables that are lolon coated. The maintenance on the nylon cables is just keeping them clean where on the lolon you should clean and oil them monthly which most skydiver dont. Also the pull force is reduced 50% on average with nylon.

I recently saw a red cutaway cable(s) that was very 'bumpy'. The cables were not smooth, which would increase cutaway forces.

Quote:
The benefit of the two pin reserve pilot chute is reduced pressure distribution on the pins and tamper prevention of the hat (the hat can not be twisted on a two pin system) The externally mounted reserve pilot chute provides for direct deployment of the pilot chute into the air stream without having to push any flaps out of the way.

No rig is tamper resistant. The pull forces on pop-top rigs can be dramatically increased by over tighterning the closing loop from the outside, which does not break the seal and cannot be otherwise detected. That is my biggest hang up with Racers and Reflex's. They can be accidently over tightened by the owner or another well-meaning rigger. Unfortunately the rigger that packed it will still be held accountable for too high of a reserve pull force if there is a problem.

I don't think a reserve PC having to go past flaps makes a reserve deployment any slower. I think a bigger factor is reserve size because the reserve PC doesn't get any larger as the reserve gets heavier. A pop top reserve with a PD-106R would have a faster deployment than a non-pop top reserve with a PD-218R and if the reserves were switch (and containers appropriately sized) the opposite would be true. As long as the PC gets into the airstream, it makes little difference if it went past a flap or not. PC drag also makes a difference.

Quote:
As to the reserve, Jump Shack uses a speed bag where every stow is a locking stow to help prevent line dump/bag strip and rubber bands to prevent bag lock since the force of the pilot chute will break a rubber band but will not break a bungee cord.

As long as the locking stows stay put until line stretch, normal opening. The jury is still out of rubber bands vs. safety stow for reserve free-bags. We started out with rubber bands until Para Flite introduced the safety stow in the 80's. I am curious as to the driving force behind Jumpshack's decision to return to rubber bads for free bags. It also brings up those reserves out there that do not adhere to a 120-day re-pack cycle and the decomposing of the rubber bands. I don't know if the grommets on a Racer free-bag are nickle plated, but if they are not, rubber reacts with the brass.

Racers work and work well, but I have reservations about them.

Derek


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 3, 2003, 7:28 AM
Post #13 of 79 (2344 views)
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     Re: [NightJumper] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

I've seen telon cables where the entire coating cracked in a spiderweb fashion and if any one of the pieces fell out then it could serve to catch the release loop when pulled through it. I've never seen similar damage on a lolon cable. I have seen some of the Flex pins on Stong tandems have the same damage.

Ask a few manufacters their opinions on the Lolon/Teflon cables and get completely informed on the issues. Smile

As to the Teardrop not being able to get a TSO like their webpage says they have TSO c23d on the rig. The 1 pin poptop was a very successful design and is still made by a few companies. Jumpshack is the only 2 pin pop top manufacter still around.

Jumpshack is the only company that uses a speed bag design on their freebags, the rest of the world uses a safety stow and a line pocket. Ask RWS, Sunpath and then Jumpshack why their reserve freebags are closed the way they are and why they don't all use the speed bag design.

Get completly informed on all the differences before making a purchase. I love the feel of a Racer on my back, they are very comfy. The rest of the things are what you need to decide for your self.


NightJumper  (D License)

Dec 3, 2003, 7:34 AM
Post #14 of 79 (2340 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Quote:
I recently saw a red cutaway cable(s) that was very 'bumpy'. The cables were not smooth, which would increase cutaway forces.

And you replaced it didn't you?

Quote:
No rig is tamper resistant.

I disagree, however I would say that no rig is tamper proof.

Quote:
I don't think a reserve PC having to go past flaps makes a reserve deployment any slower.

There are definitely rigs that have faster reserve deployments than others. The advantage of Jump Shack exposed PC is that it deploys to the full length of the bridal and into the air stream faster. This results in a faster deployed reserve.

Quote:
It also brings up those reserves out there that do not adhere to a 120-day re-pack cycle and the decomposing of the rubber bands. I don't know if the grommets on a Racer free-bag are nickle plated, but if they are not, rubber reacts with the brass.

There have been no reported issues with extended pack times. As the new free bags do not have grommets for the stows it is a non-issue.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Dec 3, 2003, 7:39 AM
Post #15 of 79 (2335 views)
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     Re: [jumpinfarmer] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

I think it speaks volumes that every other rig manufacturer out there has rejected most of the design principles of the Racer, and standardized on something completely different.

There are newer and better designed rigs.

_Am


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Dec 3, 2003, 8:02 AM
Post #16 of 79 (2325 views)
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     Re: [AndyMan] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Quote:
There are newer and better designed rigs.

I take it you have not seen the 2K3 then. All of the old gripes about Racers are no longer present on the 2K3.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 3, 2003, 8:18 AM
Post #17 of 79 (2321 views)
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     Re: [LouDiamond] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

>All of the old gripes about Racers are no longer present on the 2K3

Umm.. not exactly. Teflon cables and the Speed-bag/rubber band on the freebag are still on the 2K3.


NightJumper  (D License)

Dec 3, 2003, 8:19 AM
Post #18 of 79 (2321 views)
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     Re: [AndyMan] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Quote:
I think it speaks volumes that every other rig manufacturer out there has rejected most of the design principles of the Racer, and standardized on something completely different.

Are you sure about that? Do you know all of the products Jump Shack makes that are used by others in the industry? Define "standardized"?

Using your statement above no one should buy a RWS with a skyhook since they are the only one that makes or uses that kind of system (which works very well). Look at the various types of reserve deployment systems, exposed PC, Semi-exposed PC and non-exposed PC. And if a two pin system is so bad then why does the largest manufacture of military parachutes in the world use a two pin system on their ram air rigs? The same rigs that are own military use.

I too think that it speaks volumes that most Racer owners wouldn't jump anything else. Or are you saying that they are less capable of making informed decisions?

I personally think that all of the top manufactures out there make good rigs and are serving the industry well. Rather than one rig being better than the other I think it is more a choice of what options are offered and what you want.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Dec 3, 2003, 8:30 AM
Post #19 of 79 (2312 views)
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     Re: [PhreeZone] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

In reply to:
>All of the old gripes about Racers are no longer present on the 2K3

Umm.. not exactly. Teflon cables and the Speed-bag/rubber band on the freebag are still on the 2K3.


I'm not one to argue about rubber bands or teflon cables, I think that's knit picky shit that doesn't really make that big of a difference to make it an issue. Like any piece of equipment, you take care of it and it will take cae of you. ALL manufactures components or products will eventually wear out or need periodic maintainence to keep them serviceable. If teflon cables and rubber bands on the freebag is that big of a discriminator for you then that's your decision. Some people like 2 door cars, some like trucks. Thats why there are individual choices that have to be made. Liking a truck over a 2 door car doesn't make the other a bad choice for everyone.


RMURRAY

Dec 3, 2003, 9:14 AM
Post #20 of 79 (2297 views)
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     Re: [jumpinfarmer] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Who cares what others think. My next rig will be a Power Racer M2K - if it is as comfortable as my NOS.


NightJumper  (D License)

Dec 3, 2003, 10:02 AM
Post #21 of 79 (2265 views)
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     Re: [PhreeZone] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Quote:
Umm.. not exactly. Teflon cables and the Speed-bag/rubber band on the freebag are still on the 2K3.

The teflon cable issue was resolved long ago and is no longer a problem. If anyone has one of the old cables that need replacing then they should return it for replacement. As for the freebag issue that is a choice as it works correctly. And I would say there are a lot of people that like it looking at the sales increase since it was introduced.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 3, 2003, 10:13 AM
Post #22 of 79 (2259 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Quote:
pull forces on pop-top rigs can be dramatically increased by over tighterning the closing loop from the outside,

Todd just recently recieved a rig from a jumper at a different DZ, a Racer, that the jumper wanted repacked. It had been packed by a different rigger previously. The jumper had not tightened the pop-top down himself, only his rigger had done that.

When Todd tested the pull force on the reserve, it took 35lbs of pull!


brits17  (D 24752)

Dec 3, 2003, 10:24 AM
Post #23 of 79 (2250 views)
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     Re: [jumpinfarmer] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

i personally think racer's are a great system. the only problem i have is with the rubber bands on the freebag. like derek noted, for those who do not adhere to the 180 day repack cycle, rubber bands can get brittle in there.

i like the pin protection and i personally think they're easy to pack (no tension devices, all flaps close at once, loop replacement much less often). do your own research, everyone has their opinions... just take the good... with the bad Wink


brits17  (D 24752)

Dec 3, 2003, 10:25 AM
Post #24 of 79 (2248 views)
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     Re: [AggieDave] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Todd just recently recieved a rig from a jumper at a different DZ, a Racer, that the jumper wanted repacked. It had been packed by a different rigger previously. The jumper had not tightened the pop-top down himself, only his rigger had done that.

When Todd tested the pull force on the reserve, it took 35lbs of pull!

i've seen 40 on a mirage.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Dec 3, 2003, 10:28 AM
Post #25 of 79 (2248 views)
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     Re: [AggieDave] Question about Racer rigs [In reply to]  

Usually when things are done incorrectly the results will show, be it packing reserves or pouring a foundation for a house. A technically proficient rigger will know how to pack a Racer the correct way. It's not rocket science, there is a manual and there are reserve packing classes given by all manufactures at different functions. If you are a rigger then there is no excuse IMO for not being able to do your job, which is to provide rigging services to everyone regardless of equipment manufacturer. Be technically proficient, don't be lazy. If it was all easy then everyone would be a rigger.


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