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Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory?

 

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kitof1976  (A 43592)

Nov 26, 2003, 8:51 AM
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Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? Can't Post

Ok here is the deal. I have a Triathlon that needs a reline badly! I talked to my rigger, who is also a master rigger and said he could do it for about 280 bucks or so...If I remember correctly he said the line set was 220+ 60 to install them.
I just wanted to know what the general consensus is regarding relines. Should it best be left to the factory to do it or is it fine if a master rigger does it.
Do master riggers make the line sets from scratch or do they order them from the manufacturer and just instal them?

Any insight would be great... I don't want to look like I don't trust my Master rigger, but if parachutes are like cars in anyways... the manufacturer usually get things right....tweak it yourself and chances are it will be a mere imitation how it should run...


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Nov 26, 2003, 9:15 AM
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Re: [kitof1976] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok here is the deal. I have a Triathlon that needs a reline badly! I talked to my rigger, who is also a master rigger and said he could do it for about 280 bucks or so...If I remember correctly he said the line set was 220+ 60 to install them.
I just wanted to know what the general consensus is regarding relines. Should it best be left to the factory to do it or is it fine if a master rigger does it.
Do master riggers make the line sets from scratch or do they order them from the manufacturer and just instal them?

Any insight would be great... I don't want to look like I don't trust my Master rigger, but if parachutes are like cars in anyways... the manufacturer usually get things right....tweak it yourself and chances are it will be a mere imitation how it should run...

Main is not a TSO component, so probably anyone could do it. You could even build a main canopy from sheets, threads and paper clips, and go jumping and it would be perfectly legal.


kitof1976  (A 43592)

Nov 26, 2003, 9:29 AM
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Re: [skydiverek] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

reply]

Main is not a TSO component, so probably anyone could do it. You could even build a main canopy from sheets, threads and paper clips, and go jumping and it would be perfectly legal.
Well, my question is not really regarding the legal aspect of it but more directed towards the quality of worksmanship.

A more simple question. Will the line set installed/built by a rigger be as good as a factory reline?


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Nov 26, 2003, 9:41 AM
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Re: [kitof1976] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

Either the manufacturer or a having a rigger install a manufacturer supplied line set is the way to go. Building them from scratch is simply too time consuming.

Legally, a Senior or Master Parachute rigger, some under the supervision of a rigger, or the person making the nxt jump on the canopy can make minor and major repairs and alter a non-TSO'd component (main and main container).

Derek


rigging65  (D 21921)

Nov 26, 2003, 9:51 AM
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Re: [kitof1976] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I just wanted to know what the general consensus is regarding relines. Should it best be left to the factory to do it or is it fine if a master rigger does it.

We do re-lines all the time in our loft...most often done by Senior Riggers. It's not hard to install a set, and there are always markings/directions to help you along.

Quote:
Do master riggers make the line sets from scratch or do they order them from the manufacturer and just instal them?

Some might. Most all the riggers in our area simply buy them from the Mfg. then install them. It's a lot more work to build a set than you might think. Not some much actually building the set, but the setup to build it is time consuming. To really do it right, you need to set up a jig with all the specific measurements. Based on T&M (at least in our area) it's also significantly cheaper to buy the set from the Mfg., as they can make them much faster than most lofts can...especially if you include your setup time in your T&M.

Quote:
You could even build a main canopy from sheets, threads and paper clips, and go jumping and it would be perfectly legal.

I know this was said in a slightly tongue-in-cheek manner, but FYI, you can jump whatever you want...as long as your intent upon exiting is to land the canopy you are deploying as your "main". If you want to jump a bedsheet (literally), and don't plan on landing it, legally you must have at least 2 other canopies. The law states you must have one parachute on your back that you don't plan on using except in the case of an unforeseen emergency, and that canopy must be TSO'd (US rules).


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 26, 2003, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Legally, a Senior or Master Parachute rigger, some under the supervision of a rigger, or the person making the nxt jump on the canopy can make minor and major repairs and alter a non-TSO'd component (main and main containe
Didn't I just read this somewhere?Tongue


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 26, 2003, 10:16 AM
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Re: [kitof1976] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but more directed towards the quality of worksmanship.

I wouldnt take my reserve for a repack to a rigger if I was worried about how well he could change line-sets


rmsmith

Nov 27, 2003, 8:56 PM
Post #8 of 111 (5381 views)
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Re: [kitof1976] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got a Velocity going back to PD for a reline, which will cost $210.00 ($195.00 for reline and $15.00 inspection fee). The turn around time is currently about 2-weeks.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 1, 2003, 4:10 AM
Post #9 of 111 (5304 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Either the manufacturer or a having a rigger install a manufacturer supplied line set is the way to go. Building them from scratch is simply too time consuming.

Legally, a Senior or Master Parachute rigger, some under the supervision of a rigger, or the person making the nxt jump on the canopy can make minor and major repairs and alter a non-TSO'd component (main and main container).

Derek


Actually not true. Only a Master Rigger or someone under his direct supervision(Definition of supervision is listed in Part 105.3),can alter,make major repairs, modify, or make changes to a component of a parachute assembly. It does not matter if it is a TSO'd component or not. I do not know exactly where that got started.Look under Major Repairs in the FAR's and you will find there is no distinction between the two(TSo'd ver NON-TSO'd).
A Senior Rigger's responsibilities are generally limited to Assembling, packing, and maintaining parachutes.
Line repairs are listed in the FAR's as a major repair,i.e.. I will look it up today and post the location.

Now back to the original thread.......
There are Master Riggers out there that can do great work in regards to quality and craftsmanship installing line sets and I would be glad to Pm a list of the ones that I know abroad.
Blue ones,
Mark


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 1, 2003, 5:15 AM
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Re: [masterrigger1] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Actually not true. Only a Master Rigger or someone under his direct supervision(Definition of supervision is listed in Part 105.3),can alter,make major repairs, modify, or make changes to a component of a parachute assembly. It does not matter if it is a TSO'd component or not. I do not know exactly where that got started.Look under Major Repairs in the FAR's and you will find there is no distinction between the two(TSo'd ver NON-TSO'd).
A Senior Rigger's responsibilities are generally limited to Assembling, packing, and maintaining parachutes.
Line repairs are listed in the FAR's as a major repair,i.e.. I will look it up today and post the location.

I just went through this in another forum. Check FAR part 65. I e-mailed the local FSDO and a Master Rigger/Inspector e-mailed me back that a Senior or Master Rigger, someone under the supervision of a Senior or Master rigger, the person making the next jump on the canopy, or the parachutist in command making the next jump on it, can repair/alter/major repair, etc, a main canopy or main container of a 2 canopy system. He also mentioned how (since changing how it is packed is an alteration) someone can legally change how a main canopy is packed.

Here is the e-mail I recieved from the FSDO:

"14 CFR Part 65.111(b) states, "No person may pack, maintain, or alter
any
main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional
parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United
States
unless that person ?
1. Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;
2. Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute
rigger;
3. Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute
in
accordance with 105.43(a) of this chapter;
4. Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with
that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under
105.45(b)(1)
of this chapter."

In plain language this regulation states:
1. If you have a parachute rigger certificate or
2. You are under the supervision of a parachute rigger or
3. You are the person jumping with the main parachute or
4. You are the parachutist in command making the next tandem jump
with
that main parachute

So, if you are any one of the above, you can pack, maintain, or alter
any
main parachute of a dual parachute system.

However, keep in mind that any main parachute alteration that affects
the
strength or operation of the auxiliary (reserve) parachute, including
the
harness, must be regarded as an alteration of the auxiliary (reserve)
parachute and must be performed by a Master Parachute Rigger using FAA
approved data.

This also answers your question that you can change how the main
parachute
is packed if you are one of the items above.

Hope this clearly answers your questions."

Part 65

Derek


Harksaw  (C 33932)

Dec 1, 2003, 6:13 AM
Post #11 of 111 (5286 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I e-mailed the local FSDO and a Master Rigger/Inspector e-mailed me back that a Senior or Master Rigger, someone under the supervision of a Senior or Master rigger, the person making the next jump on the canopy, or the parachutist in command making the next jump on it, can repair/alter/major repair, etc, a main canopy or main container of a 2 canopy system.

From what you have said, it sounds like a Senior Rigger or the person making the jump is able to perform major repairs and alterations. I was under the impression that only a Master Rigger can perform these operations.


From FAR 65.125:
Quote:

(a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may --

(1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with 105.43(a) or 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(b) A certificated master parachute rigger may --

(1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with 105.43(a) or 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(c) A certificated parachute rigger need not comply with 65.127 through 65.133 (relating to facilities, equipment, performance standards, records, recent experience, and seal) in packing, maintaining, or altering (if authorized) the main parachute of a dual parachute pack to be used for intentional jumping.

From this, it says that you need to be a master rigger to perform major repairs and alterations. From what I have read, I have come to believe that no alterations at all can be made by a Senior Rigger, regardless of whether they could affect airworthiness. The question of whether a repair could affect the airworthiness of any of the equipment is what distinguishes between a minor (can bed done by a Senior Rigger) and a major repair(Master Rigger only).

I am not a rigger, just studying to become one, so please let me know if I am mistaken. Thanks!Wink


(This post was edited by Harksaw on Dec 1, 2003, 6:15 AM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 1, 2003, 6:17 AM
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Re: [Harksaw] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
FAR 65.125
, refers to reserves/Harnesses/rserve containers. FAR Part 65.111 (b) refers to the main canopy and main container.

So, only a Master Rigger (or manufacturer) can alter or make major repairs to reserves/harnesses/reserve containers. But the people listed in 65.111(b) can alter, make major repairs to the main canopy or main container.

Derek


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 1, 2003, 9:05 AM
Post #13 of 111 (5252 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

hooknswoop,
You are getting confused over who can pack, who can do minor repairs and who can do major repairs.
My interpretation of the FARs is that a wide variety of people may PACK mains; riggers, tandem instructors or the next guy who plans to jump it.
Anything more complicated than assembly must be done by a rigger.
FAA Senior Riggers may do MINOR REPAIRS, i.e. small sewn patches.
MAJOR REPAIRS (large patches, resewing seams, relines, etc.) can only legally be done by a Master Rigger.
On a practical note, I would not entrust a re-line to anyone who had not already re-lined several canopies under the supervision of a Master Rigger.

A few skydivers have offered to "help" re-line their own canopies, but I can do the job quicker and neater by myself.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 1, 2003, 9:10 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You are getting confused over who can pack, who can do minor repairs and who can do major repairs.

The FAR is very specific:

"14 CFR Part 65.111(b) states, "No person may pack, maintain, or alter
any
main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional
parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United
States
unless that person ?
1. Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;
2. Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute
rigger;
3. Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute
in
accordance with 105.43(a) of this chapter;
4. Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with
that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under
105.45(b)(1)
of this chapter."

In plain language this regulation states:
1. If you have a parachute rigger certificate or
2. You are under the supervision of a parachute rigger or
3. You are the person jumping with the main parachute or
4. You are the parachutist in command making the next tandem jump
with
that main parachute"

For a main parachute, if you meet one of the 4 requirements, you can "pack, maintain, or alter" it.

Derek


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 1, 2003, 9:16 AM
Post #15 of 111 (5248 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
FAR 65.125
, refers to reserves/Harnesses/rserve containers. FAR Part 65.111 (b) refers to the main canopy and main container.

So, only a Master Rigger (or manufacturer) can alter or make major repairs to reserves/harnesses/reserve containers. But the people listed in 65.111(b) can alter, make major repairs to the main canopy or main container.

Derek

65.111 Certificate required.

(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with 65.127 through 65.133.

There is no difference in 65.111 and 65.125 in regards to TSO'd equipment.

"14 CFR Part 65.111(b) states, "No person may pack, maintain, or alter
any
main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional
parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United
States
unless that person ?
1. Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;

Appropiate means Master Rigger when doing Major repairs, alterations, and modifications. This is spelled out not only in the FAA written test questions, but also the DPRE test modules.
Any person can work under a Master rigger and complete the work, but the Master rigger is the one to sign it off. The intent of 65.111(b) is basically for packing and etc.
If the FSDO inspector sent that out to you; he/she needs to research further into the FAR's because they are dead wrong!

The end result is Major repairs,alterations, or modifications outside of the manufacturer, have to be done by a Master Rigger or someone under his direct supervision. And line repair is cosidered to be a major repair.

BS,
Mark


Harksaw  (C 33932)

Dec 1, 2003, 9:33 AM
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In reply to:
Quote:
FAR 65.125
, refers to reserves/Harnesses/rserve containers. FAR Part 65.111 (b) refers to the main canopy and main container.

So, only a Master Rigger (or manufacturer) can alter or make major repairs to reserves/harnesses/reserve containers. But the people listed in 65.111(b) can alter, make major repairs to the main canopy or main container.

Derek

I don't see where it says 65.125 only applies to reserves. You make a very good arguement with 65.111 that anyone can do these things to the main they are jumping next (although it does not explain what an "appropriate" certificate is for performing these things on other's canopies), but it goes against everything I've been told and what I have read from the rigger's study guide I've read. So now I'm confused.


(This post was edited by Harksaw on Dec 1, 2003, 9:35 AM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 1, 2003, 11:11 AM
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Re: [masterrigger1] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Appropiate means Master Rigger

Not according the Master Rigger at the Denver FSDO, that said he has delt with this issue before.

Quote:
1. If you have a parachute rigger certificate or

According to this inspector, who is a Master rigger, you do not even need a riggers ticket if you are jumping it next to repair or alter a main canopy.

I am not going to call an FAA inspector and tell him he is wrong.

Derek


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 1, 2003, 11:16 AM
Post #18 of 111 (5215 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
FAR 65.125
, refers to reserves/Harnesses/rserve containers. FAR Part 65.111 (b) refers to the main canopy and main container.

So, only a Master Rigger (or manufacturer) can alter or make major repairs to reserves/harnesses/reserve containers. But the people listed in 65.111(b) can alter, make major repairs to the main canopy or main container.

Derek

I don't see where it says 65.125 only applies to reserves. You make a very good arguement with 65.111 that anyone can do these things to the main they are jumping next (although it does not explain what an "appropriate" certificate is for performing these things on other's canopies), but it goes against everything I've been told and what I have read from the rigger's study guide I've read. So now I'm confused.
Quote:

It can be quite confusing but do not let it get that way!

I assume that you are getting ready to take the written, and if so, stick to the reference material and you will be fine.
The Far's are in great need of rebuilding and Sandy Reid now has that project in hand. It will be a long time coming and alot of hard work ahead to complete it.
I for one would like to make them into one rating for a parachute rigger that encompasses all the ratings into one. That issue is being pushed at this time! But until then, confussion will rein!
BS,
Mark


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 1, 2003, 11:29 AM
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In reply to:
Quote:
Appropiate means Master Rigger

Not according the Master Rigger at the Denver FSDO, that said he has delt with this issue before.

Quote:
1. If you have a parachute rigger certificate or

According to this inspector, who is a Master rigger, you do not even need a riggers ticket if you are jumping it next to repair or alter a main canopy.

I am not going to call an FAA inspector and tell him he is wrong.

Derek


I will. It is not the first time an inspector/rigger has been wrong. They themselves have trouble interpreting the FAR's. They now have a "little guidebook' for interpreting the rules.
FSDO's have often had different rulings with the same FAR's between two FSDO's.
I will get him to contact you with the outcome of our discussions.
Happy Holidays,
Mark


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 1, 2003, 11:44 AM
Post #20 of 111 (5208 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

"14 CFR Part 65.111(b) states, "No person may pack, maintain, or alter
any
main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional
parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United
States
unless that person ?
1. Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;
2. Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute
rigger;
3. Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute
in
accordance with 105.43(a) of this chapter;
4. Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with
that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under
105.45(b)(1)
of this chapter."

In plain language this regulation states:
1. If you have a parachute rigger certificate or
2. You are under the supervision of a parachute rigger or
3. You are the person jumping with the main parachute or
4. You are the parachutist in command making the next tandem jump
Quote:

What is your understanding of this FAR? It seems very clear to me that 1 of 4 requirements must be met to be able to legally pack, maintain, or alter a main canopy. The FAA inspector (and Master rigger) put those requirements in plain language for me.

I'll PM you his name, # and e-mail address.

Derek


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 1, 2003, 12:03 PM
Post #21 of 111 (5201 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

We can argue the finer points of the written law all week, but the bottom line is that I don't trust most skydivers to "assemble" their own mains.

I would not trust anyone to do a minor repair (i.e. small patch) unless they had a few weeks sewing practice under the supervision of a licensed rigger.
(Geeh! That sounds an awful lot like the pre-levels for FAA Senior Rigger.)

And I would not trust anyone (outside a factory) to re-line a canopy unless they had 2 or 3 years experience doing major repairs - under supervision.
(Geeh! That sounds an awful lot like the pre-levels for FAA Master Rigger.)


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 1, 2003, 12:56 PM
Post #22 of 111 (5189 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We can argue the finer points of the written law all week, but the bottom line is that I don't trust most skydivers to "assemble" their own mains.

I would not trust anyone to do a minor repair (i.e. small patch) unless they had a few weeks sewing practice under the supervision of a licensed rigger.
(Geeh! That sounds an awful lot like the pre-levels for FAA Senior Rigger.)

I could not say it any better! This year alone we have had at least three (3) mis-riggings that almost killed someone from "Field Rigging". They all were Senior Riggers with limited knowledge and experience that got their hands on a line set.
No matter what, you have to have the knowledge and equipment to do the Job right.

Blue Ones Guys,
Mark
a.k.a "M.E.L"


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 1, 2003, 12:58 PM
Post #23 of 111 (5184 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
We can argue the finer points of the written law all week, but the bottom line is that I don't trust most skydivers to "assemble" their own mains.

I would not trust anyone to do a minor repair (i.e. small patch) unless they had a few weeks sewing practice under the supervision of a licensed rigger.
(Geeh! That sounds an awful lot like the pre-levels for FAA Senior Rigger.)

I could not say it any better! This year alone we have had at least three (3) mis-riggings that almost killed someone from "Field Rigging". They all were Senior Riggers with limited knowledge and experience that got their hands on a line set.
No matter what, you have to have the knowledge and equipment to do the Job right.

I agreeWink, though there are people w/o a Rigger's rating that can sew patches, replace lines, etc, very well.

Derek


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 1, 2003, 9:50 PM
Post #24 of 111 (5140 views)
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I agreeWink, though there are people w/o a Rigger's rating that can sew patches, replace lines, etc, very well.

Derek
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hee! Hee!
Were you referring to all the little Latina ladies who do the real production work in most parachute factories?
I have the utmost respect for ladies like Consuelo and Lita etc. They have far more patience than me sewing beautifully year in and year out.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Dec 12, 2003, 7:05 PM
Post #25 of 111 (5075 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Who should reline a canopy? Rigger? Master Rigger? Factory? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's the link for the interpertation of relines and who may relace them:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/WebSearchDefault?SearchView&Query=ac%20105-2c&SearchOrder=1&SearchMax=0&SearchWV=TRUE&SearchFuzzy=FALSE&Start=1&Count=100#

Go to page 8 of 18 and then paragraph 12.
The ruling for alterations to main parachutes is forth coming from Washington and will be posted when I receive it. It has not changed!

Mark


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