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how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to?

 

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Newbie  (C License)

Nov 14, 2003, 3:04 AM
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how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? Can't Post

because there are so many incidents of jumpers of all experience levels (but generally less exerienced jumpers) impacting hard under a perfectly good main, due to a low radical turn, i was wondering if some of the most experienced canopy pilots on here, perhaps a mod like skymonkeyone, or someone, could specifically advise what someone should do when they make a radical low turn and need to recover from it quickly and safely, when they realise they are going to impact the ground hard.

This is not meant to be about giving people advice on how to go and make an emergency recovery from a swoop attempt gone wrong, it should be about how to get yourself out of a dangerous and potentially fatal situation when you have had to make a low turn due to unforeseen circumstances like emergency manoevering to avoid another canopy, powerlines, moving aircraft etc (and yes, we all know they should be spotted before going up in the air, or while in the air, but we all know that doesn't always happen).

I was taught about emergency recovery while on my canopy course, and while i haven't had to use it, i think things like that are invaluable to anyone who might find themselves in this situation. I'm sure i could learn a thing or two more myself on this, so would welcome any tidbits of advice that the most experienced can give.

Edited to add: flat turns are great for stopping these sorts of incidents, but in a high pressure situation im not sure if everyone will instinctively go into a flat turn. This should be about advice for those that forget to make a flat turn and turn hard, and realise they have got to do something quickly to prevent serious injury.


(This post was edited by Newbie on Nov 14, 2003, 3:07 AM)


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Nov 14, 2003, 3:40 AM
Post #2 of 78 (2302 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

First, if you don't know what you're doing - don't do "low radical turns."

If you do - and you're screwed..

Get on the brakes to get the wings level and the canopy slowed down as fast as possible without initiating a high speed stall.

Problem is, most newbies only realise they're screwed when their foot hits them in the mouth after they've femured themselves....Crazy

t


(This post was edited by Tonto on Nov 14, 2003, 6:24 AM)


webracer  (D 24550)

Nov 14, 2003, 4:02 AM
Post #3 of 78 (2291 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing against you for asking, but this is too much to explain here. The best answer is avoid the situation. The second best answer was already given. If you know someone who needs this advice, do your best to steer them to a canopy course like Scott Miller gives. They need more than we can give here.


jejejelle  (A License)

Nov 14, 2003, 4:02 AM
Post #4 of 78 (2290 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

plf like you have never done before i guess....

i dont think that there is a way to stop a low radical turn..... but it depends (like always) on how low you really are...


andy2

Nov 14, 2003, 4:54 AM
Post #5 of 78 (2258 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was messing around with this up high one day spiraling to pick up a LOT of speed and then slamming brakes. I was suprised at how easy it is to stall at those speeds!

I vote practice practice practice!


Mixoligist  (D 26787)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:17 AM
Post #6 of 78 (2159 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

DO NOT TURN LOW !
think ahead.
problem solved.


Jimbo  (D License)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:22 AM
Post #7 of 78 (2153 views)
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Re: [Mixoligist] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
DO NOT TURN LOW !

Unfortunately, people seem to ignore this rule.

Quote:
think ahead

Definitely. Thinking, instead of panicking, will save you more times than not. Remember, if you do find yourself confronted with an obstacle down low, you don't need to miss it by 50 feet, you need to miss it by 1 inch. Radical turns down low just shouldn't be necessary.

-
Jim


jeremyneas  (D 20133)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:23 AM
Post #8 of 78 (2151 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

if you hear swoopers talk to each other enough you'll hear phrases like "i had to pull out of that one earlier than expected" to "you pulled that one out of your ass". they are doing what you described. they were too low or the canopy dove more than anticipated and they had to bail out of the swoop for safety or fear.

most people go strait to brakes and plane the canopy out as fast as possible. most of the time it just scraps their distance or makes a harder than normal landing.

traditional 9 cell canopies have an advantage over crossbrased canopies in "pulling out" because they have more tail deflecting, increasing their chances of planeing out without the stall.

what am i missing here? this is a good thread


Newbie  (C License)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:31 AM
Post #9 of 78 (2144 views)
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Re: [jeremyneas] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

what about seeing the ground at "the wrong angle"? I heard that mentioned one time, is that when you are swung out like a pendulum, when you should be levelled out? Or "getting out the corner"? I know these are swoop phrases, but if experienced canopy pilots can relate their experiences to people who are not swooping, but find themselves in similar situations due to unforeseen circumstances and can help them out, then maybe some of these fatalities can become injuries, and some of the injuries can become sighs of relief and a dust off.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:35 AM
Post #10 of 78 (2139 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This is not meant to be about giving people advice on how to go and make an emergency recovery from a swoop attempt gone wrong, it should be about how to get yourself out of a dangerous and potentially fatal situation when you have had to make a low turn due to unforeseen circumstances like emergency manoevering to avoid another canopy, powerlines, moving aircraft etc (and yes, we all know they should be spotted before going up in the air, or while in the air, but we all know that doesn't always happen).

An emergency low turn should be a flat turn. Failing that, after a panic low turn, first stop the turn by matching the opposite toggle at about half brakes, not by letting up on the toggle that was used to initiate the turn, unless it was pulled down beyond half brakes. Half brakes is only a general position and the best amount to pull down the toggles varies from canopy to canopy, and by wing loading and how the toggles are set on the steering lines. The max recovery position should be practiced before hand. Be careful to avoid a stall, which will make the situation worse. A stall can happen at any airspeed. A canopy (or wing) stalls at a critical angle of attack, not an exact airspeed. I have seen a salvageable low turn result in an injury because the pilot pulled down too much toggle and stalled the canopy.

At some point the turn is too low and unrecoverable before impact with the ground. There is no fixing it, only minimizing the damage by placing the toggles in the best recovery position and a PLR (Parachute Landing Roll).

Derek


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:36 AM
Post #11 of 78 (2137 views)
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Re: [jeremyneas] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
traditional 9 cell canopies have an advantage over crossbrased canopies in "pulling out" because they have more tail deflecting, increasing their chances of planeing out without the stall.

Huh? The amount of tail deflection is determined by how much the toggles are pulled down.

A cross braced 9-cell canopy does not have any advantage over cross braced canopies with respect to pulling out of a dive. Given the same wing loading, a cross braced canopy will pull out of a dive without stalling better than a non-cross braced canopy. Pulling out of a dive with toggles adds G forces and increases the amount of lift the canopy is producing (and drag). This causes non-cross braced canopies to have their non-load bearing ribs rise in relation to the load bearing ribs. This causes a zigzag shape if viewed from the front of the canopy. This zigzagging causes the canopys span (wing tip to wing tip) distance to decrease, the top skin to distort, and the total effective surface area to decrease. This means less lift to pull out of a dive with.

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Nov 14, 2003, 7:48 AM)


Newbie  (C License)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:40 AM
Post #12 of 78 (2135 views)
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Re: [webracer] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nothing against you for asking, but this is too much to explain here. The best answer is avoid the situation. The second best answer was already given. If you know someone who needs this advice, do your best to steer them to a canopy course like Scott Miller gives. They need more than we can give here.

i disagree - if only 6 people contribute and add in something useful, thats 6 potential pointers to help out people that might find themselves in a situation that, yes, they shouldn't be in, but are.

People are doing this all the time, and a lot of the low turns seem unintentional and not swoop attempts gone wrong (although there are more than their fair share of those).

I agree that avoidance is the best course of action. What happens to those people who forget this? Is it right to let them bounce off the ground because they didn't take avoidance into account? Human error is always going to factor in. I didn't post this for those jumpers who want to swoop or downsize before they should be - i'm talking about the regular jumpers, taking things slow and make a low turn out of pilot error - how can guys like that be helped out, when they forget to not do a radical low turn.

I also think you underestimate how useful dz.com is for people when they find themselves in a predicament in the air. If you look around, a lot of people were thankful they read an article here before they went jumping on the weekend and it helped them out of a sticky situation.


jeremyneas  (D 20133)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:41 AM
Post #13 of 78 (2132 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

"getting out of the corner" is the same as being to low in the hook turn. the 'corner' is straight down from the final downplane, you want that to be a curved motion, but the closer you get to the ground before you pull out the more your decent under the canopy looks like a abrupt angle.

swoopers have to be aware of the pendulum effect but, not like a person starting out. there is no worry of pulling out to high and having the canopy slow down and having no flare for the landing. the essence of pulling out of a low turn means that either your going to have the flare in the plane out or your going to hit the ground before it does.

the way i interupt seeing the ground at the 'wrong angle' would be if your carving in for landing, in which case your using your toggles and have control of the canopy in that situation, this would be more of a heads up thing, than trying to 'pull' out of a bad situation.


Newbie  (C License)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:47 AM
Post #14 of 78 (2122 views)
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Re: [Mixoligist] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
DO NOT TURN LOW !
think ahead.
problem solved.

with all due respect, that doesn't solve anything for the hapless jumpers who do turn because they panic.


marks  (D 22296)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:50 AM
Post #15 of 78 (2117 views)
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Re: [jeremyneas] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
traditional 9 cell canopies have an advantage over crossbrased canopies in "pulling out" because they have more tail deflecting, increasing their chances of planeing out without the stall.

you obviously haven't flown a cross braced canopy beforeShocked


Newbie  (C License)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:52 AM
Post #16 of 78 (2114 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks Derek, i didn't know to pull down on the other toggle rather than let up the one thats caused you to dive - i'm going to practice that up high next time.


marks  (D 22296)

Nov 14, 2003, 7:53 AM
Post #17 of 78 (2112 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
because there are so many incidents of jumpers of all experience levels (but generally less exerienced jumpers) impacting hard under a perfectly good main, due to a low radical turn, i was wondering if some of the most experienced canopy pilots on here, perhaps a mod like skymonkeyone, or someone, could specifically advise what someone should do when they make a radical low turn and need to recover from it quickly and safely, when they realise they are going to impact the ground hard.

This is not meant to be about giving people advice on how to go and make an emergency recovery from a swoop attempt gone wrong, it should be about how to get yourself out of a dangerous and potentially fatal situation when you have had to make a low turn due to unforeseen circumstances like emergency manoevering to avoid another canopy, powerlines, moving aircraft etc (and yes, we all know they should be spotted before going up in the air, or while in the air, but we all know that doesn't always happen).

I was taught about emergency recovery while on my canopy course, and while i haven't had to use it, i think things like that are invaluable to anyone who might find themselves in this situation. I'm sure i could learn a thing or two more myself on this, so would welcome any tidbits of advice that the most experienced can give.

Edited to add: flat turns are great for stopping these sorts of incidents, but in a high pressure situation im not sure if everyone will instinctively go into a flat turn. This should be about advice for those that forget to make a flat turn and turn hard, and realise they have got to do something quickly to prevent serious injury.

if your too low in the corner well then you got to dig out of it... preforably on the toggles..

although doing carving turns and starting higher and slowly building speed gives you the time and the ability to steepen or lessen the dive accordingly to prevent this from ever happening.....


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 14, 2003, 8:08 AM
Post #18 of 78 (2095 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
DO NOT TURN LOW !
think ahead.
problem solved.

with all due respect, that doesn't solve anything for the hapless jumpers who do turn because they panic.

If someone makes a low turn on account of panic, what makes you think they will immediately become calm and clear-headed enough to correct the situation using information they have read here?

"Superior pilots use their superior judgement to avoid having to use their superior skills." Or - solve the problem at 500ft, not 25 ft.


Newbie  (C License)

Nov 14, 2003, 8:19 AM
Post #19 of 78 (2091 views)
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Re: [kallend] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If someone makes a low turn on account of panic, what makes you think they will immediately become calm and clear-headed enough to correct the situation using information they have read here?

i don't know if they will become calm and clear headed - but some jumpers have said that in high pressure/anxiety moments, that they suddently felt calm and clear and even thought back to an article they had read on here (one guy i remember had read something on 2 outs i believe and went jumping that weekend and had a 2 out), and reacted accordingly to the good advice and thought that they had put into thinking about the situation on the ground.

I know a radical low turn leaves little time for thought, but maybe if we were to read something here, spend evn 30 mins thinking about the technique and working out in their mind what to do, practicing up high on a few jumps, and getting some muscle memory down, it would help should we ever find ourselves in a situation like that.

Who knows, i'm just trying to best prepare myself for any eventuality i guess, and i'm sure there are others that want to do the same. Didn't your scout master ever tell you to "always be prepared" kallend?Wink


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Nov 14, 2003, 8:28 AM
Post #20 of 78 (2078 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave, get yourself off to one of the BPA roadshows and seek some guidance from a canopy coach.

Speaking as someone who has bust himself from a radical low turn, you really don't want to be there in the first place, unless you know exactly what you are doing.
Everything happens very fast, you won't have an awful lot of time to even know that you've fucked up, let alone think about initiating recovery procedures.

That said its a whole lot easier to put your foot in your mouth here than it is to do it out on the field sometime.Cool


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Nov 14, 2003, 8:31 AM
Post #21 of 78 (2072 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you find yourself in a low turn, rapidly approaching the ground.....don't be afraid to bail out of it and land downwind, crosswind, whatever... Get yourself level(remember the phrase wings level?) and flare. PLF like a mofo. The most important thing is to get the wing LEVEL!

Mike


Newbie  (C License)

Nov 14, 2003, 8:34 AM
Post #22 of 78 (2069 views)
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Re: [nacmacfeegle] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

nac i took Chris Lynchs' Wingtips canopy seminar this year - it was fantastic, i can't recommend it enough.

I don't plan on being in this situation - i really don't want to get into swooping right now either, but that wasn't why i put this post up. I thought this post might be useful though to me, and anyone, who might find themselves in a situation like this, when they forget to flat turn for some unknown reason (panic in other words).

Cheers!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 14, 2003, 9:21 AM
Post #23 of 78 (2029 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

>what someone should do when they make a radical low turn and
> need to recover from it quickly and safely, when they realise they
> are going to impact the ground hard.

First off, prevent the problem beforehand by practicing intentional low turns. Learn to flat turn and flare turn up high, then gradually try it lower and lower. Once you've done enough of them, you will instinctively do them when someone cuts you off or you realize you have to turn into the wind.

Next, get your visual altimeter calibrated. As you're practicing flat turns, try to get a feel for what the minimum altitude is that you can do them at, at what point you're 5 seconds from landing, at what point you're 10 seconds away. (Your altimeter is not much use at this point since the needle is pointing somewhere between the 200 foot tick and the 0 tick.)

Do very radical turns up high and try flaring for all you're worth. You may find that your canopy stalls at some point i.e. you pull even harder but you don't get as much lift. Remember this feeling.

Finally, if you ever do find yourself in a hard turn at 50 feet, I'd recommend the following:

1. Flat turn and flare simultaneously. If you are in the turn with no toggle input, then start flaring and bring down the 'opposite' toggle more aggressively. The idea is to level the wing as quickly as possible, so the lift you generate is in the right direction (up) while getting the canopy to start recovering immediately.

2. After the wing is level, do not stall the canopy i.e. do not pull any more G's than you felt when you stalled the canopy before (if your canopy stalls at all, that is.) This is hard to do since your instinct is to bury the toggles.

3. Get ready for a PLF. They work suprisingly well even for very hard impacts. If the wing is level when you hit, a PLF will work that much better.

4. If you do hit very hard and end up airborne again - keep flying the canopy. I know a few people who got most of their injuries when they hit the second time.


marks  (D 22296)

Nov 14, 2003, 9:33 AM
Post #24 of 78 (2018 views)
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Re: [billvon] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
4. If you do hit very hard and end up airborne again - keep flying the canopy. I know a few people who got most of their injuries when they hit the second time.


this makes me cringe!Crazybut is soo true..

ragdolling.. but you got to fly the canopy....


(This post was edited by marks on Nov 14, 2003, 9:33 AM)


webracer  (D 24550)

Nov 14, 2003, 9:37 AM
Post #25 of 78 (2015 views)
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Re: [Newbie] how do you stop a low radical turn from killing you when you know it is probably going to? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I agree that avoidance is the best course of action. What happens to those people who forget this? Is it right to let them bounce off the ground because they didn't take avoidance into account? Human error is always going to factor in. I didn't post this for those jumpers who want to swoop or downsize before they should be - i'm talking about the regular jumpers, taking things slow and make a low turn out of pilot error - how can guys like that be helped out, when they forget to not do a radical low turn.

I also think you underestimate how useful dz.com is for people when they find themselves in a predicament in the air. If you look around, a lot of people were thankful they read an article here before they went jumping on the weekend and it helped them out of a sticky situation.
Newbie,
I understand DZ.com is useful for many types of info, but the question you posed, sortof like a troll, since you are posting it for the perceived benefit of others and not your own benefit (benevolent aren't you?), is covered (or should be) in every first jump course.
What you propose is that we train to get out of a situation rather than to not get into it in the first place. What can result is folks who think, "well, I can do this low turn because I read how to get out of it on DZ.com."
I think you should spend more time posting threads that benefit you (since you know what questions you need answers to), and less time dreaming up questions for the perceived needs of others.
If you really need help with this, as one of your instructors.
Situations do occur where a conservative jumper finds himself in a low turn. The recovery advice is published EVERY MONTH in the incident reports of Parachutist.


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