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Do you use/turn-on your Cypres?

 

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Poll: Do you use/turn-on your Cypres?
Have it and use it. 30 / 48%
Have it, keep it off. 7 / 11%
Don't have a Cypres. 25 / 40%
Have and use another AAD. 0 / 0%
62 total votes
 
darkvapor

Oct 7, 2003, 7:03 PM
Post #1 of 31 (2761 views)
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Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? Can't Post

Just curious what proportion of CRW dogs regularly use a Cypres.

I know the arguments for and against it for use in CRW, so I don't think there needs to be a discussion about that.

I turn on my Cypres when doing CRW since I've been using my regular freefall rig. However, I think I'm about to put together a dedicated CRW rig, and it won't have a Cypres.

Let's also try to keep this poll/discussion to dedicated crw jumps, not freefall jumps with a few crw points turned at the end.


Shark  (D 24499)

Oct 7, 2003, 9:55 PM
Post #2 of 31 (2682 views)
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Re: [darkvapor] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I turn on my Cypres when doing CRW since I've been using my regular freefall rig. However, I think I'm about to put together a dedicated CRW rig, and it won't have a Cypres.

That's what I did. No RSL on my crew rig, either.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Oct 8, 2003, 9:35 AM
Post #3 of 31 (2646 views)
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Re: [Shark] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a separate rig for CrW. No AAD.


Gadget  (D 20099)

Oct 8, 2003, 12:24 PM
Post #4 of 31 (2638 views)
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Re: [darkvapor] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

Never used one.But we went to the Mondial in Gap and in France it's mandatory for all diciplines so we had to use them and since it's in i'm useing it ever since


relyon  (D 18973)

Oct 8, 2003, 4:01 PM
Post #5 of 31 (2624 views)
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Re: [darkvapor] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

Aside from 30 or so jumps on student gear and maybe one or two others, I haven't jumped a rig with an AAD. I've never made CRW jump with a RSL.

Bob


tictoc  (D 23506)

Oct 8, 2003, 5:18 PM
Post #6 of 31 (2620 views)
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Re: [darkvapor] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

I will answer your question with a question that may give you the answer. Why would you need an AAD for CRW. All formations are done over 2.5k, the AAD is meant to be used if you are unable to pull. For CRW the ods of getting knock out coming out of the plane (befor you pull) or after cuting away are not all that great. As with a RSL the problems that can come from having one out weight the ones from not. You can use them if you would like but I will keep to not.


darkvapor

Oct 8, 2003, 6:28 PM
Post #7 of 31 (2614 views)
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Re: [tictoc] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I will answer your question with a question that may give you the answer. Why would you need an AAD for CRW. All formations are done over 2.5k, the AAD is meant to be used if you are unable to pull. For CRW the ods of getting knock out coming out of the plane (befor you pull) or after cuting away are not all that great.

Right. Like I said, I know the reasons why most people don't. I know that CReW dogs die from too much out, not from not enough.

However, the chances are there. Yes, the chances of getting incapacitated on exit are slim. The chances of being unable to pull your reserve after a cutaway are also slim. Yes, there is a chance of having a cypres misfire. And it's an individual decision which out-weighs which.

I'm just curious what proportion of people picked what option.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Oct 9, 2003, 12:59 AM
Post #8 of 31 (2603 views)
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Re: [tictoc] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

My logic for using a cypres for any type of jump, including CRW (besides the fact that since I dont have my C yet, Im obligated to use an AAD anyway):

If the cypres fires Im way low. In that case, I should be happy about any extra inch of fabric above my head. If Im at 750 ft with enough speed to fire a cypres, Im out of time to do much myself.

Note: Im not worried about a cypres misfire. But I DO jump a cypres, and not say an FXC because I have less reason to trust those, besides the fact its a snag hazzard.

Note 2: If I would do jumps without an AAD, CRW, accuracy and h&ps would be my first choice.
Im not really afraid to jump without an AAD, but since I have one (err two actually) I use it.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Oct 9, 2003, 7:14 AM
Post #9 of 31 (2598 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just remember - there have been Cypres misfires - and if one happens on a CRW jump - you're probably dead and so might be some of your friends. Lots of CRWdogs use radios to talk or countdown or whatever in formations. There have been several cases of student or airplane radios firing a Cypres. There was a tandem Cypres that fired 100 feet off of the ground - can you imagine landing a 2-stack and having that happen?

The risks outweigh the rewards in my book.

W


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Oct 9, 2003, 7:57 AM
Post #10 of 31 (2596 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

 What do you do about DZs that require an ADD before you are waivered to jump there?


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Oct 9, 2003, 8:08 AM
Post #11 of 31 (2595 views)
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Re: [VectorBoy] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What do you do about DZs that require an ADD before you are waivered to jump there?

I've never jumped anywhere like that. Don't actually intend to either.

Its like the last world meet in France - I know of teams and such from various countries that were required to have AADs (including for accuracy and CRW) who borrowed old FXCs and Sentinels and such for the meet and then just didn't turn them on.

These days I'm inclined to buy an "expired" Cypres cheap and then just put the console in the Cypres pouch on my rig and cut off the batteries and the rest to appease people like that.

W


dragon2  (D 101989)

Oct 9, 2003, 11:49 AM
Post #12 of 31 (2585 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What do you do about DZs that require an ADD before you are waivered to jump there?

I've never jumped anywhere like that. Don't actually intend to either.

Its like the last world meet in France - I know of teams and such from various countries that were required to have AADs (including for accuracy and CRW) who borrowed old FXCs and Sentinels and such for the meet and then just didn't turn them on.

These days I'm inclined to buy an "expired" Cypres cheap and then just put the console in the Cypres pouch on my rig and cut off the batteries and the rest to appease people like that.

W

Hmmm in Gap all rigs were checked for a live AAD. They pushed the cypres button (once).

I even had a problem when I was going up in the Porter for pictures, not jumping (this was during the competition and I'm not a competitor). I was told to turn on my cypres, walk to boarding area, secretively turn off my cypres just before boarding, and to turn it back on again quickly after landing CrazyCrazyCrazy

They never did check me, so except the pilot and the boarding-area guy nobody knew my cypres wasn't on. But they could've, so I complied with their rules Unsure

BTW One of our accuracy guys jumped an ex-student rig, student cypres included. They didn't like that very much. But he said, what, I'm I going to set it off with a boat?!

Anyway, here in Europe more and more DZ's/countries are requiring AAD's, either up to a certain number of jumps,a specific license (Holland), or plain mandatory for everybody (France).


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

Oct 9, 2003, 1:36 PM
Post #13 of 31 (2581 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess this is one CRW-chien who won't be jumping in France. C'est dommage.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Oct 10, 2003, 4:26 PM
Post #14 of 31 (2547 views)
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Re: [darkvapor] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ever since Brad Foster, one of the toughest and most bulletproof CRWDogs I've ever known, whacked his head on a King Air stabilizer and went in, I've jumped a CYPRES on my CRW rig.

It's hard to point to a downside for an AAD in CRW. If you are descending at 70 MPH at 700 ft., I can't think of how having your reserve activated can worsen your situation. I know you didn't want the pros/cons of a CRW AAD, but I couldn't stop myself.

kevin
ToadSucker 46


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Oct 10, 2003, 4:34 PM
Post #15 of 31 (2545 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

All new and retrofitted CYPRES units are RF shielded to keep those signals out.

Statistical occurrences of misfires are so low as to be virtually nonexistant.

Rewards outweigh the risks. Edit your book.

Kevin


darkvapor

Oct 10, 2003, 5:01 PM
Post #16 of 31 (2541 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's hard to point to a downside for an AAD in CRW. If you are descending at 70 MPH at 700 ft., I can't think of how having your reserve activated can worsen your situation. I know you didn't want the pros/cons of a CRW AAD, but I couldn't stop myself.

I wanted people to post what information they used to make their decisions. Your post is very much appreciated. Anecdotal support is very valid here. That was pretty much the basis of my poll.

Has there been a case of an accidental (above 750ft) Cypres deployment in a CRW situation?

I think your post has shown that being incapacitated on exits can happen. I think that has been shown last month with that emergency exit Cypres save.

What I didn't want this thread to be about is someone listing the reasons what can happen. I think most of us here know what CAN happen.

What I wanted this discussion to be about is whether using an AAD outweighs the risk. Here, I think anecdotal evidence is going to be most important. While Foster's death is a tragedy, I think we need to use information like that to try to mitigate the risks as much as possible.

Historically, I think the Cypres has proved itself to be reliable enough to use in CRW. But then again, CRW has been fairly safe even without the need for a Cypres.

On a slight side track, do you know if Foster was using a helmet? Do you think that would have saved him? To me, it seems the majority of Crw dogs don't use a helmet. And using a helmet is going to be cheaper insurance than a getting a Cypres. I use one because I'm still a beginner in both skydiving and CRW. That, and the local crw-gods use them, setting a good example for me.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Oct 10, 2003, 5:07 PM
Post #17 of 31 (2540 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All new and retrofitted CYPRES units are RF shielded to keep those signals out.

Statistical occurrences of misfires are so low as to be virtually nonexistant.

Rewards outweigh the risks. Edit your book.

Kevin

In theory yeah. But there have been misfires since he died as well. Basically I'm paying ~$200+ a year if I had a Cypres betting that I don't knock myself unconscious on exit.

If I weigh the odds of me killing myself on exit (and almost certainly a Cypres would not have saved Brad - it would only have made for a better fuyneral :-( - versus the odds of a misfire versus the odds of me needing it. I'm borderline on my 3 freefall rigs - I figure it would help more than it would hurt but $3600 worth of Cypreses (the cost of the Cypres 2 on a Racer) versus the odds of me being knocked out in freefall - they're iffy.

And the odds of me needing a Cypres on my CRW rig versus the odds of it killing me - I figure they're at best even - at worst less than even. I almost never jump King Airs. I normally jump Cessnas where the pilots are experienced. I never jump up on exit. And Cypres misfires do happen. If it wasn't for the expense, I'd outfit 2 of my 3 freefall rigs. The 3rd is too small to hold one. But my CRW rig - the odds are at best 50/50 - on a good day - of it being more beneficial than dangerous - and I'm not willing to spend $1200 on a device that has as much chance of killing me as saving me..

Freefall is one thing.. CRW is another. I DEFINITELY would never take a downplane low with someone wearing a turned-on Cypres.

I really miss Brad. I still think the odds are not with having a Cypres for CRW.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Oct 13, 2003, 1:05 PM
Post #18 of 31 (2498 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think everyone who jumped with Brad misses him.

As to his wearing of a helmet, I agree with you, it almost certainly wouldn't have helped.

It (CYPRES wearing) all comes down to personal pref., and you have stated your quite eloquently, as always. In your case, I think that hitting a King Air tail, or dunking a basketball, are remote possibilities...

kevin


sikorsky  (D 6301)

Oct 16, 2003, 12:15 PM
Post #19 of 31 (2451 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

Keenan said, "I can't think of how having your reserve activated can worsen your situation."

he's right

...six to eight hundred feet at that speed?, --i keep a Cypres on anytime I exit, --the one my Wife had installed in my rig. Fuck it, she packs it if I'm tired so I jump it.

ts 55 --he'll always have a lower number.Wink


homer  (C 35146)

Oct 17, 2003, 1:53 PM
Post #20 of 31 (2418 views)
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Re: [sikorsky] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty new to CReW jumping even though I have been around CReW dogs since my first jump. I wont jump without my cypres on because I know that one jump I just may do an over aggressive rotation ending up in a rap and wish to god that I had turned it on. By then its to late. For me the only time I would not turn my cypres on is if I were planning on taking a down plane below 750. I do however always disconnect my RSL. I do it because if there is a rap i want to get away from everything before grabbing silver.


Sargeatlarge  (F 294)

Jan 19, 2004, 3:40 PM
Post #21 of 31 (2284 views)
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Re: [darkvapor] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are a few factors to consider each one on occasions cancelling out the other. For example, if you are unconscious, its cool for your AAD to fire. But if you are in a wrap at, say, 7,000 and descending quick enough, you don't want your reserve in it. My personal preference....no AAD on CReW jumps. Still, interested to know if anyone has had a bad experience.


Sargeatlarge  (F 294)

Jan 20, 2004, 8:08 PM
Post #22 of 31 (2241 views)
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Re: [homer] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One thing to think about is that in a wrap you want the choice of when (and sometimes if) to cut away and then fire your reserve. The choice about when to fire your reserve is taken out of your hands by a cypres which may fire your reserve into a wrap.

This is a topic about which experienced CReW jumpers would have some very established views and I would very interested to hear them

At the 70 ways, alot of people I spoke to did not have a cypres on CreW rigs or did not turn them on.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jan 21, 2004, 8:29 AM
Post #23 of 31 (2221 views)
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Re: [homer] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For me the only time I would not turn my cypres on is if I were planning on taking a down plane below 750. I do however always disconnect my RSL.

I've never heard of a cypres firing during a downplane. What kind of speeds do 'you' hit during a Downplane? I didn't think it was an issue unless you had a student cypres.... What's the point of breaking a downplane above 750 (unless you're practicing docks and fun with a newbie and want to do several, or in a bad spot)?

My crw rig doesn't have a cypres. I don't have an opinion either way, though. Just cheap on rig #2. Depends on the problem you are experiencing on whether you wish you had it or not.

Now the RSL is a completely different discussion with some pretty strong views. Me? I'd rather not have it connected, but I couldn't argue either side very well.


krkeenan  (C 7860)

Jan 21, 2004, 11:17 AM
Post #24 of 31 (2210 views)
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Re: [Sargeatlarge] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
One thing to think about is that in a wrap you want the choice of when (and sometimes if) to cut away and then fire your reserve. The choice about when to fire your reserve is taken out of your hands by a cypres which may fire your reserve into a wrap.

*****************************

My thinking is that if you are passing 750' at high speed, then having a reserve out can only improve things. I don't think you should be concerned about clearing a wrap after a cutaway below that altitude, because anything but the shortest delay at that height would not allow for reserve deployment.

This is certainly a personal preference issue. I recognize that there may be certain conditions in which the proper operation of the device could make the overall situation worse, or even unsurvivable. But, you have to go with what you feel is the best calculation of risk. I think that in the majority of cases, having an operating CYPRES is good.

Kevin K.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2004, 1:22 PM
Post #25 of 31 (2204 views)
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Re: [krkeenan] Do you use/turn-on your Cypres? [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply\
My thinking is that if you are passing 750' at high speed, then having a reserve out can only improve things. I don't think you should be concerned about clearing a wrap after a cutaway below that altitude, because anything but the shortest delay at that height would not allow for reserve deployment.
.
But my worry is not the best-case scenario you list above :-) An expert Cypres is designed to NOT fire if you have anything out at all - because otherwise it could fire during hook turns and other such maneuvers. So its unlikely that in a wrap situation, you would ever have enough downward speed to trigger it (although you might have plenty enough to kill you.)

My last freefall spinning mal registered at just under 50 mph vertical speed, and I can guarantee you I was descending at a much faster rate than I ever have under a CRW wrap.

My worry is the misfires that have occurred. There is proof they've fired at wrong times - on multiple occasions hand-held radios have caused a fire - can you imagine the mess that would have occurred if one had accidently fired in the 70-way? There is at least a couple cases where it really did fire high, and I know of another instance where it fired on a tandem at <100 feet for no apparent reason.

I trust them for freefall, but since by design, the Cypres is designed to NOT help in 99.9999% of CRW wraps - the descent rate just won't be high enough - (even Chico's nasty wrap last year had a relatively slow descent rate - wasn't hard at all to keep up with under canopy) - the misfires that have occurred seem to me to be a much greater chance than it could ever help me.

On a freefall rig however, in most cases, the opposite is true. The benefits outweigh the risks by far.

W


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