Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
why disconnect RSL?

 

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kelel01  (A License)

Oct 1, 2003, 12:44 PM
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why disconnect RSL? Can't Post

For what reason would someone want to disconnect their RSL? I have a couple of theories as to why (to avoid reserve tangling with main, or to allow cutaway of malfunctioning main when unstable so that you can regain stability before deploying reserve), but I'm really not sure. Any thoughts?

Thanks!!
Kelly


Hazarrd

Oct 1, 2003, 12:51 PM
Post #2 of 106 (3439 views)
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Re: [kelel01] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've heard some people say that in areas where dust devils or high wind gusts are common, they do it so they dont get dragged across the ground on landing (ie they cutaway as soon as they feel the gust coming and since the RSL is disconnected the reserve doesnt deploy). Im pretty sure it would take some pretty quick thinking though to cutaway in a situation like that.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Oct 1, 2003, 12:57 PM
Post #3 of 106 (3429 views)
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Re: [kelel01] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you do CRW, RSL are not really desirable because if you wrap with another canopy. I know people that jump camera that won't jump with the RSL hooked up in case they have to cut away to make sure their main clears all the camera equipment.

Judy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 1, 2003, 12:59 PM
Post #4 of 106 (3428 views)
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Re: [Hazarrd] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

>they do it so they dont get dragged across the ground on landing
>(ie they cutaway as soon as they feel the gust coming and since the
> RSL is disconnected the reserve doesnt deploy).

A dust devil or a strong wind will not deploy your reserve. If people wish to disconnect their RSL's in strong winds, it's primarily a convenience thing i.e. it avoids opening your reserve container, which requires a repack.


Hazarrd

Oct 1, 2003, 1:37 PM
Post #5 of 106 (3397 views)
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Re: [billvon] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>they do it so they dont get dragged across the ground on landing
>(ie they cutaway as soon as they feel the gust coming and since the
> RSL is disconnected the reserve doesnt deploy).

A dust devil or a strong wind will not deploy your reserve. If people wish to disconnect their RSL's in strong winds, it's primarily a convenience thing i.e. it avoids opening your reserve container, which requires a repack.

I think that's what I meant, maybe you misunderstood my post...


ZoneRat  (D 26968)

Oct 1, 2003, 1:58 PM
Post #6 of 106 (3379 views)
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Re: [kelel01] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

RSL's, by and large are not bad things, but they do complicate emergency procedures in some ways.

High winds? remember to disconnect. Water landings? remember to disconnect. Landing on a building, gotta remember. 2 canopies out? remember... etc.

Not saying you shouldn't have one. Do whatever you want. But adapt your thinking to allow for it. Don't forget it's there.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Oct 1, 2003, 2:12 PM
Post #7 of 106 (3370 views)
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Re: [Hazarrd] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
maybe you misunderstood my post...
Just the wording. To many of us "deploy" means the canopy comes out of the bag, which is unlikely on the ground (even in high winds). "Opening the reserve container" is a bit clearer.

Sematics. Sorry.


rigging65  (D 21921)

Oct 1, 2003, 3:32 PM
Post #8 of 106 (3324 views)
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Re: [ZoneRat] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
RSL's, by and large are not bad things, but they do complicate emergency procedures in some ways.

High winds? remember to disconnect. Water landings? remember to disconnect. Landing on a building, gotta remember. 2 canopies out? remember... etc.

I'm not sure I follow your line of thought here. There is no safety reason why you should disconnect your RSL in the event of heavy winds. If you're getting drug and cutaway, you'll have to get your reserve reclosed/repacked, but that's not a safety concern.

Why would you need to disconnect in a water landing? You shouldn't be cutting away, you should be flaring into the water, just like a normal landing, then swimming out of your harness. People have been killed from cutting away over water...you have no idea how deep it is, and you begin to accelerate as soon as you cutaway...why do this??

Landing on a building falls under the same category as heavy winds...it's not a safety issue to have your reserve p/c pop out, just an inconvenience.

I've seen a bunch of 2-out scenes with cutaways and have NEVER seen an RSL complicate the procedure. Not saying it couldn't, but it hasn't....I have, on the other hand, heard of (and, unfortunately, seen) several instances of someone disconnecting their RSL, then needing it...and not always living to tell about it.

I agree there are a couple of disciplines where the RSL does not help you get the desired effect when cutting away. Namely, Camera flying and CRW. Other than that, I can't think of an instance where you would have to disconnect your RSL to be safe...convenient, yes, safe, no.

My $.02...


Kris  (D 26033)

Oct 1, 2003, 4:44 PM
Post #9 of 106 (3298 views)
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Re: [kelel01] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...so that you can regain stability before deploying reserve...

Some people have spent the rest of their lives trying to regain stability.Unimpressed


ifics  (B License)

Oct 1, 2003, 4:46 PM
Post #10 of 106 (3298 views)
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Re: [rigging65] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told to disconnect it if I am being drug across a building or if I had a 2 out mal...


kelel01  (A License)

Oct 1, 2003, 4:57 PM
Post #11 of 106 (3294 views)
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Re: [Kris] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Some people have spent the rest of their lives trying to regain stability.
Point taken. I don't plan on disconnecting my RSL anytime soon. Thanks!!Blush

Kelly


ZoneRat  (D 26968)

Oct 1, 2003, 5:33 PM
Post #12 of 106 (3287 views)
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Re: [rigging65] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well. Maybe I'm wrong. Let's look at them.

You're right about the high wind thing. The odds of your deployed reserve inflating and dragging you is pretty slim, I'd expect. Odds are you'd just look the fool.

The SIMs do state to disconnect though.

Water: Right. Don't cuttaway over water. But what if you've landed in running water? A river for example. Ocean waves. Best bet... You should already have the chestrap off by the the time you've landed, have loosened the legstraps and are swimming against the current out of the harness... but ya never know. Odd things happen.

Again the SIM ask that you disconnect the RSL in case of some unforseen need to cuttaway.

Buildings. Right. Probably it will just plop out. Again the SIM asks that you disconnect the RSL and cut.

The 2-out scenerios. I've never heard of a complication either. It's hard to believe that the RSL strap could mess anything up.

But again the SIM says disconnect.

All that said, I tend to believe that RSL's are really good thing overall. And solve more problems than they typically create. I'd recommend them for all new jumpers. I also recommend that they follow the SIM guidelines for use. It's all risk management.

Still... your reasoning is pretty solid. If an experienced jumper decides not to follow SIM rec's for disconnecting, I guess that doesn't bother me much.

For that matter maybe the SIMS should be less picky about asking folk to disconnect... the risks are minimal, but the confusion is more.

At the end of the day, it's always up to the individual to decide whats best and act.


I have heard some Freeflyers claim that the exposed RSL bridal (where it connects to the rings) could catch air in head down causing a reserve premy. I don't know if thats true. But if so, that really would be a case where an RSL adds risk.

I'd be interested to read some FF comments on that.

Robin


lummy  (A 40776)

Oct 1, 2003, 6:05 PM
Post #13 of 106 (3271 views)
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Re: [ZoneRat] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The 2-out scenerios. I've never heard of a complication either. It's hard to believe that the RSL strap could mess anything up.

Why you would want to disconnect your RSL in a two out situation? What's the point? you already have your reserve out.. Because the RSL is just something else the reserve can catch and hang on?


Nullified  (C 32259)

Oct 1, 2003, 6:21 PM
Post #14 of 106 (3266 views)
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Re: [lummy] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The 2-out scenerios. I've never heard of a complication either. It's hard to believe that the RSL strap could mess anything up.

Why you would want to disconnect your RSL in a two out situation? What's the point? you already have your reserve out.. Because the RSL is just something else the reserve can catch and hang on?

I asked Rusty Vest about this last year. He's done some two-out testing and found that with the reserve already out, the main doesn't always provide enough drag to free it.

Stay safe.


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Oct 1, 2003, 9:10 PM
Post #15 of 106 (3219 views)
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Re: [Kris] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some people have spent the rest of their lives trying to regain stability.Unimpressed

And some people have spent the rest of their lives trying to free their reserve after it fouled due to an unstable reserve deployment - usually on camera gear. There ARE reasons to NOT use an RSL. I choose to not use one EVER. It's a safety hazard, IMO.

Mike


ZoneRat  (D 26968)

Oct 1, 2003, 10:10 PM
Post #16 of 106 (3206 views)
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Re: [lummy] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The 2-out scenarios. I've never heard of a complication either. It's hard to believe that the RSL strap could mess anything up.

Why you would want to disconnect your RSL in a two out situation? What's the point? you already have your reserve out.. Because the RSL is just something else the reserve can catch and hang on?

Yeah. I'm not sure why they decided to put that in the SIM. There's a lot I don't know. But it seems to me that in a 2-out situation, the RSL bridal is disconnected (very probably) from the cuttaway cable and would just be sorta flapping about harmlessly- the other end connected to the RSL ring on the riser. Should it turn downplane and you cuttaway... I can't see the RSL strap being a problem, but I find it hard to visualize the cause and effect on this.

I dunno. A rigger can answer it better, I think. Although you replied to my post, Lummy, I'm a bit out of my depth here. Just kinda goin' with the SIM's...


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 1, 2003, 10:58 PM
Post #17 of 106 (3192 views)
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Re: [ZoneRat] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just one story. I had a mal from teminal, a rug over me. Ive cuted away and opened the reserve. I was surprised when I saw my main hanging on me from the RSL.

I cant see any reason to disconnect RSL in high winds or landing on a building. IMHO a canopy is not loaded it wont fly, it wont drag. I bet a cuted away conpy wont open reserve on the ground with the RSL, or you can keep one of the risers after the cutaway, because you are standing on the ground.


ZoneRat  (D 26968)

Oct 1, 2003, 11:50 PM
Post #18 of 106 (3180 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
How was your main connected to you? One end of the RSL is on the main riser RSL ring and the other is on a ring an inch away from the reserve pull pin.

Surely the Reserve side RSL ring slipped off your cutaway cord. But... maybe not.... Do you know what it was hung on?

Also, shouldn't emergency procedures be geared to protect in worse case scenarios? What if a storm front came in... I've seen it happen. Wind's were fine a minute ago... someone jumped out... now they're gusting like crazy, and that person's under canopy. Actually, I've seen it twice. The whole DZ goes apeshit. Thankfully, no one landed on a building... but they could've.

What if the reserve popped out over the side of a building and caught an updraft? Hell, I don't know... But it seems to me that if you fly an RSL you should know when to disconnect it and why. And if you're not sure exactly why, one should follow the SIMS, and train your emergency procedures to prep for worst case events.

Unless of course, the SIMS are wrong.

In the case of your hung main, they weren't.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 2, 2003, 12:25 AM
Post #19 of 106 (3171 views)
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Re: [ZoneRat] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Surely the Reserve side RSL ring slipped off your cutaway cord. But... maybe not.... Do you know what it was hung on?
YEah. It was hanging on some velcro.

That gear had one side RSL. In case of high wind I would hold the riser of the RSL side and cut away. The canopy would deflate if its not suspended in both sides.


(This post was edited by phoenixlpr on Oct 2, 2003, 4:59 AM)


Ron

Oct 2, 2003, 3:28 AM
Post #20 of 106 (3145 views)
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Re: [rigging65] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've seen a bunch of 2-out scenes with cutaways and have NEVER seen an RSL complicate the procedure. Not saying it couldn't, but it hasn't.

I know of a Racer that the RSL killed the guy with a double out. Check Racers web site..I think its on there.


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Oct 2, 2003, 3:39 AM
Post #21 of 106 (3143 views)
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Re: [ZoneRat] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

If anyone has any worries about the consequenses of having a connected RSL after landing they may safely disconnect it after passing through their hard deck altitude.

At that hight, they have already made the decision to stay with their current cannopy and regardless of what happens to it they are unlikly to attempt a cutaway.

This will ensure they are still afforded the protection of an RSL whilst a cutaway is possible and yet avoid the problems that they associate with its opperation at ground level.

Everyone's happy.Smile


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Oct 2, 2003, 4:40 AM
Post #22 of 106 (3132 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IMHO a canopy is not loaded it wont fly, it wont drag.
Hmmm... so the two times I was dragged across the landing area after landing were figments of my imagination.

In reply to:
I bet a cuted away conpy wont open reserve on the ground with the RSL
If you cutaway a main canopy because it's dragging you (or to avoid being drug) and an RSL is connected, the reserve container WILL open.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 2, 2003, 5:04 AM
Post #23 of 106 (3116 views)
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Re: [skybytch] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In Reply To
IMHO a canopy is not loaded it wont fly, it wont drag.
Hmmm... so the two times I was dragged across the landing area after landing were figments of my imagination.
It was loaded :)

In reply to:
If you cutaway a main canopy because it's dragging you (or to avoid being drug) and an RSL is connected, the reserve container WILL open.
Is RSL on both sides? Let it be just on the left. Keep left riser with your hand and cut it away. RSL/reserve wont be activated and canopy will be collapsed.

I had 9 jumps with RS4/A round GDR canopy. It has an old 2 sided/2hand operated cutaway system. We were adviced to use one of them on drag.


(This post was edited by phoenixlpr on Oct 2, 2003, 5:05 AM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 2, 2003, 5:06 AM
Post #24 of 106 (3112 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I bet a cuted away conpy wont open reserve on the ground with the RSL

You're wrong.

I've seen it happen before.

Its even happened just resently at SD Aggieland.


Ron

Oct 2, 2003, 5:07 AM
Post #25 of 106 (3110 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] why disconnect RSL? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If anyone has any worries about the consequenses of having a connected RSL after landing they may
safely disconnect it after passing through their hard deck altitude.

At that hight, they have already made the decision to stay with their current cannopy and regardless of
what happens to it they are unlikly to attempt a cutaway.

Thus getting rid on the ONE reason to have an RSL in my opinion. Why disconect it if you have one? No one ever PLANS on cutting away low. But it has happened plenty of times. The low cutaway fatality at the WFFC *might* have not been if he had an RSL....

If you choose to jump one...Leave it conected till after you land....Otherwise why jump one at all?


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