Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Downsizing vs Elliptical

 


Alambic

Sep 4, 2003, 2:05 AM
Post #1 of 19 (1512 views)
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Downsizing vs Elliptical Can't Post

Hi there,

I need some advice:

I have 300 jumps, and 230 of them on the same canopy. It is non- elliptical and I have 1.2 wing loading on it.

I am feeling I could downsize, (it would bring me to 1.33 wingloading), but I was just wandering if it wouldn t be an idea to go to an elliptical first.

Anyway what would you suggest between:

-downsize to 1.33 wingloading, still with non elliptical
-keep 1.2 wingloading, but change for an elliptical of the same size?

Thanx


lazyfrog

Sep 4, 2003, 2:58 AM
Post #2 of 19 (1490 views)
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Re: [Alambic] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

what canopy are you flying ???
what are youre alternatives of change ??
what do your instructors think about it ???


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Sep 4, 2003, 3:09 AM
Post #3 of 19 (1482 views)
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Re: [Alambic] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm tempted to say go to an eliptical only if you're sure about your malfunction procedures. I think that's where the major "undiscovered" risk lies. I see a lot of new eliptical jumpers chopping a lot from recoverable canopies - or trying to solve problems I wouldn't waste any time over.

Although I jump one - many of my peers with well over 4000 dives are now jumping "tapered" or "Light Eliptical" canopies.

Speak to your instructors. They've seen you land and will be able to give the best advice.

t


Squeak  (E 1313)

Sep 4, 2003, 3:17 AM
Post #4 of 19 (1480 views)
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Re: [Alambic] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

I posed this same question a week or 2 ago.
My way of thinking leans toward maintaining the same wingload and going elipitical. The prerformance idfference is enough for you to play with .
And as was discussed when I asked, the pilot has more to do with the performance than the shape. or wingloadWink


Alambic

Sep 4, 2003, 4:18 AM
Post #5 of 19 (1469 views)
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Re: [lazyfrog] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

I am Jumping an Electra. (Parachutes de France).
It is Sabre-like
I don t know if the better would be getting another Electra a bit smaller, or keep the same wingloading and go to some other shape


Squeak, I totally agree with you: The pilot is the most important for the performance... And neither want I go to something crazy and kill myself trying to swoop a pocket rocket. But I feel I want to try a bit more, and to get more with the canopy I have, I have to be very aggressive on it... I would prefer a bit more responsiveness...

That s why I want tu change, but I think the same as you do: changing shape AND size at a time is too much, so what? Shape or size???


(This post was edited by Alambic on Sep 4, 2003, 4:31 AM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Sep 4, 2003, 5:11 AM
Post #6 of 19 (1443 views)
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Re: [Alambic] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I would prefer a bit more responsiveness...

That s why I want tu change, but I think the same as you do: changing shape AND size at a time is too much, so what? Shape or size???

I still think changing the shape would be the way I'd go.
You will get imcreased performance, and you'll still be at at relative light wingload.

Then if you want to increase your wingload you could just get fatterWink


Ron

Sep 4, 2003, 5:55 AM
Post #7 of 19 (1422 views)
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Re: [Alambic] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am feeling I could downsize, (it would bring me to 1.33 wingloading), but I was just wandering if it wouldn
t be an idea to go to an elliptical first.

Anyway what would you suggest between:

-downsize to 1.33 wingloading, still with non elliptical
-keep 1.2 wingloading, but change for an elliptical of the same size?

It all boils down to what you want.

An elliptical will respond faster, but will not be as fast as a smaller square.

If you want to go elliptical I would suggest that you try an elliptical at the same WL you fly now to see if you like the way it flies.

Demo it for a while if you can (20-30 jumps). If you like it try the elliptical at the 1.33.

Either way I would not downsize and change planeform at the same time.

Ron


Premier Remster  (C License)

Sep 4, 2003, 6:13 AM
Post #8 of 19 (1412 views)
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Re: [Alambic] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am Jumping an Electra. (Parachutes de France).
It is Sabre-like

Isnt the Electra F111 bottom skin (so more like a pure square Silouhette? but then again, its gets difficult to compare canopies that are not the same! lol)


Alambic

Sep 4, 2003, 8:10 AM
Post #9 of 19 (1366 views)
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Re: [Ron] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
An elliptical will respond faster, but will not be as fast as a smaller square.
That s the kind of data I wasn t sure of and can help me decide...

Regarding the Electra, it is F111 bottom skin, (In fact I didn t know Sabre was all ZP, I thought it was a mix too)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Sep 4, 2003, 8:41 AM
Post #10 of 19 (1353 views)
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Re: [Ron] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you want to go elliptical I would suggest that you try an elliptical at the same WL you fly now to see if you like the way it flies.

Demo it for a while if you can (20-30 jumps). If you like it try the elliptical at the 1.33.

Either way I would not downsize and change planeform at the same time.
I agree.

I suggest trying both options before you buy. Fly a more aggressive canopy (ie Stiletto, Crossfire, Cobalt) in the same size as you're flying now. Then fly something closer to what you have (ie Sabre, Sabre2, Safire, Hornet) a size smaller. Then if you want, try the more aggressive canopy in the smaller size.

And like Ron said, do 20-30 jumps on each one if at all possible. One or two jumps isn't enough to fully explore the differences between what you're flying now and what you're demoing.


Ron

Sep 4, 2003, 8:50 AM
Post #11 of 19 (1346 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And like Ron said, do 20-30 jumps on each one if at all possible. One or two jumps isn't enough to fully
explore the differences between what you're flying now and what you're demoing.

Yeah, it kills me when someone says "I jumped this before"...And they did like two jumps in perfect conditions.

What Bytch said is great


JohanW  (D 86318)

Sep 4, 2003, 10:09 AM
Post #12 of 19 (1320 views)
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Re: [Remster] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am Jumping an Electra. (Parachutes de France). It is Sabre-like
Quote:
Isn't the Electra F111 bottom skin (so more like a pure square Silhouette? but then again, its gets difficult to compare canopies that are not the same! lol)
The Electra is the successor to the Merit, and, if memory serves, has a somewhat longer toggle range than the Merit though still shorter than a Silhouette, is a hybrid (ZP topskin, lopo bottom skin) same as Merit and Silhouette and is tapered same as Merit and Silhouette. It doesn't have the .. well, positive openings a Merit exhibits, but it still turns rather aggressively, requiring less toggle stroke than the Silhouette for mostly the same rate of turn and dive.

The answer to your original question is impossible to give, because you don't say what you want in a canopy.

I'm still flying the Silhouette 170 @ 1.3 I bought at 130 jumps, I now have 400 jumps on it and I know what I want from my next canopy: a longer recovery arc. I can still have plenty of fun under my present canopy because I fly it a lot harder than I used to do 400 jumps ago. Also, my landings might be more consistent. There really is no reason for me to downsize because I know how to put speed on my canopy, and I do not feel the desire to turn faster. OK, having the option of giving harness input that actually does something without frontriser input might be nice, but I'd have to demo demo demo to find out how other canopies react. I would have a hard time figuring that out with 2 or 3 jumps on a demo canopy.

OK, that's me. What do you want in a canopy?

Want more speed? Go smaller.
Want quicker turns? Go elliptical.
Want more flare? Get a different canopy. (No, I don't know which one. Demo.)
Want to swoop? You can learn that on your present canopy.
Want a smaller rig? Pack tighter.
Want a new toy? Get a wingsuit. Cool

And talk to your instructors. They know you, and they might know what you want, even if you don't know it yourself. And they can tell you what you do or should not want for various reasons.


Alambic

Sep 5, 2003, 12:59 AM
Post #13 of 19 (1220 views)
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Re: [JohanW] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Want more speed? Go smaller.
Not so much...
Quote:
Want quicker turns? Go elliptical.
It would be more something like this. I can indeed have some funny quick turns, but with a lot of front riser input, and If I don t stop it I will end with the same arms as Arnold Schwarzenegger
Quote:
Want more flare? Get a different canopy. (No, I don't know which one. Demo.)
I am OK with the flare I have
Quote:
Want to swoop? You can learn that on your present canopy.
I d like to learn to swoop, but I d like to live to know my children (and as I don t want any for the time being, I still want to live). In fact I am learning to swoop, but very progressively, with very high riser input. But I am OK to let it be to learn from a new canopy.
Quote:
Want a smaller rig? Pack tighter.
Why would I want a smaller rig, I would lose it :)
Quote:
Want a new toy? Get a wingsuit. Cool
Yeah or just a cam!!!

Thanx to all for the advices, I understand just a bit better what difference between changing shape and changing WL. Of course I won t take a decision without demoing the two of them, but right now it helps me

Blue skies


Ron

Sep 5, 2003, 5:30 AM
Post #14 of 19 (1195 views)
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Re: [Alambic] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanx to all for the advices, I understand just a bit better what difference between changing shape
and changing WL. Of course I won t take a decision without demoing the two of them, but right now it
helps me

Cool, just understand that ellipticals can also have some bad traits as well.

You have to start flying the canopy before you throw the pilot chute.

Have an Instructor talk to you about it...(Find an Instructor that jumps an elliptical to talk to, not the one that jumps the manta).

Ron


Alambic

Sep 5, 2003, 5:52 AM
Post #15 of 19 (1191 views)
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Re: [Ron] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

I know, that s what worries me a bit... I don t like very much the possibility of getting spiraled in case of line twist, but on the other hand, if I downsize and some day I go to elliptical I won t know know better how to "pilot before throwing the PC", and it will be harder to learn. If I change shape first I have the opportunity to learn it on a lightly loaded canopy.

(I have the same reasoning with swoop learning: I am glad I have a big canopy and I can learn to swoop on it, while if I had gone directly to a pcket rocket I would maybe be able to land it, but not to try to swoop it)


Ron

Sep 5, 2003, 6:11 AM
Post #16 of 19 (1187 views)
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Re: [Alambic] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
know, that s what worries me a bit... I don t like very much the possibility of getting spiraled in case of
line twist, but on the other hand, if I downsize and some day I go to elliptical I won t know know better
how to "pilot before throwing the PC", and it will be harder to learn.

Not really, you will have much more experience so it might be easier. At 100 jumps you still think about being stable when you pull, by the time you have 1,000 its pretty close to natural.

In reply to:
If I change shape first I have the
opportunity to learn it on a lightly loaded canopy.

(I have the same reasoning with swoop learning: I am glad I have a big canopy and I can learn to swoop on
it, while if I had gone directly to a pcket rocket I would maybe be able to land it, but not to try to swoop it)

And all of the above is a VERY healty way to look at it.

You can always jump the cool pocket rocket if you live long enough to learn the skills to handle it on larger canopies.

Ron


jumpgod  (C 32095)

Sep 5, 2003, 2:07 PM
Post #17 of 19 (1142 views)
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Re: [Alambic] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

got near your amount of jumps on a big square canopy. plan to keep it. i like my legs where they are.


Alambic

Sep 8, 2003, 12:30 AM
Post #18 of 19 (1063 views)
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Re: [jumpgod] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

I plan to keep it too, and I am quite conservative in general.. I am juste thinking about it, looking at the PROs and the CONs... Keeping my canopy is one of the options...


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Sep 8, 2003, 2:24 AM
Post #19 of 19 (1050 views)
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Re: [jumpgod] Downsizing vs Elliptical [In reply to] Can't Post

There are more ways to break your legs than swooping. More performance puts the control in the hands of the jumper. Less in the hands of those governing the spot, conditions, etc.

Just a thought. Use it - don't use it.

t



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