Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking

 


geoff

Dec 21, 2001, 12:52 AM
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Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking Can't Post

I know 3 or 4 jumpers here in the UK with over 5000 jumps each, jumping sub-100 sqtf high performance canopies at 2.0 - 2.5 wing loadings who always use a low 90 or 180 toggle turn to build up speed for a swoop landing. Certainly not the way we're learning to do it now.

Is this still common in the US, or has everyone switched to risers now?

Geoff



3fLiEr

Dec 21, 2001, 1:43 AM
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

Alright G - hows you?........... you comin' to Langar over Xmas??

In regard to your post - do you find that the low hookers that use toggles rather than risers are some long time jumpers rather than the new breed - my DZ for example the owners/cci/instructors who have been in the sport for decades all use toggles for their hook - its only the people who have been in the sport say less than a decade that are using risers..... although saying that there are a few "newish" jumpers that prefer toggles - it makes me cringe everytime I see a certain person hook low with an agressive toggle........ I assume its that swooping is still relatively young as a skill and persons looking into it now start with risers - but if you have been using toggles since 1975 then why start learning a new skill when you have a skill you have been doing for 20 odd years............. just a thought.............

but saying that there are a lot of newish jumpers i know that have never used their risers.....(some who are interested in swooping others that are not)............ and will continue with toggles....... until they "femur turn" it in i suppose...........

have fun geoff........ and if you fancy Langar on Boxing day some other days and new years day bang me a PM I will let you know details...........

(FreeF) All Success!!

bsbd


"In a world where we are slaves to gravity I am pleased to be a freedom fighter"


(This post was edited by 3fLiEr on Dec 21, 2001, 1:48 AM)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 21, 2001, 6:08 AM
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

Geoff,
No, the majority of jumpers in the US perform riser dives to final. Toggle hooking is frowned upon highly, though there are still some people who insist on doing it. Several members of the Golden Knights RW team still do VERY LOW toggle turns much to my dismay. Any swooper with any salt cringes when he sees that done. It's inefficient and dangerous.

Chuck

My webpage HERE


Jimbo  (D License)

Dec 21, 2001, 6:57 AM
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Several members of the Golden Knights RW team still do VERY LOW toggle turns much to my dismay.
I've seen a few of the GK do low toggle turns, scares the hell out of me and everyone else when they do. There was some speculation that riser turns were frowned upon, or outright forbidden by the GK team. Any truth to that?

-
Jim


Help with cancer research here.


(This post was edited by Jimbo on Dec 21, 2001, 7:27 AM)


ramon  (D 26115)

Dec 21, 2001, 7:09 AM
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Old skool style [In reply to] Can't Post

At the DZs I frequent it is typically very experienced (mature Laugh) jumpers on stilletos that are pretty much in their niche and do the same landing every load, they're usually first out because they're on the biggest RW group and their the first ones on the ground because they suck it down and toggle hook at like 150 '.

Not my thing either....



DanG  (D 22351)

Dec 21, 2001, 9:40 AM
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

Any opinion on toggle carves as opposed to hooks? Yanking a toggle down at 150' is one thing, but I've seen some people generate a lot of speed with a relatively slow toggle turn started at a higher altitude.

Thanks for the info.

- Dan G



Designer  (D 5771)

Dec 21, 2001, 10:22 AM
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people just like to swoop a little vs alot with riser input.I,ve noticed the #,s at 50-50.We don,t all need to be shit hot canopy pilots!



Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 21, 2001, 11:06 AM
Post #8 of 19 (1876 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We don,t all need to be shit hot canopy pilots!
That is just the point. If a young jumper starts emulating someone who obviously has a ridiculously-low toggle hook dialed, then he (or she) is going to spank. That is what we want to avoid by teaching a higher carving turn. A carving toggle turn will add a little speed, but people who do them normally end up getting into more of a toggle hook pattern after some time.

A properly executed toggle hook is a very dramatic event, but does not provide much room for error. They used to be very much the vogue, but that was before people found out how to get REAL distance out of swoops while at the same time adding in a much larger safety buffer.

No, there is nothing preventing USAPT members from doing riser dives; many of them do it this "smarter" way now. The very-low turns came from the team choosing Stilletos as their main of choice. Now, some more progressive members of the team have convinced the command that they need Velocities in order to get competitive in the swoop arena. While there is no plan to have the RW team change mains, the tandem/freefly team is definitely getting some and plans on competing next year. I say "the more the merrier".

Chuck


My webpage HERE


Zennie

Dec 21, 2001, 11:29 AM
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

It's kinda funny. A good friend of mine got out of skydiving about the time that I started to pick it up (name's Mark Horn, aka Sparkie just in case one of you might know him). I've browsed a lot of his posts from the wreck archive to see what the debates of about 5-6 years ago were about.

Well guess what? One of them was toggle vs. riser turns. Sparkie happened to be an advocate riser turns... noting as Chuck and others have, the increased margin for error, and increased speed, that it provides.

Here's a sample from 1994:

>I have heard that pulling down on the risers is better for two reasons:
>First, it keeps your body under the canopy and not to the side during a
>turn

I don't believe this. You don't have to watch too many people doing front
riser hook turns to see that they swing out from under their canopy plenty.

>and second, if you misjudge the landing, you can let go the riser and
>get a normal canopy shape as soon as the lines stretch back out.

I'm not sure I understand the significance of the above. However, consider
what you're doing when you pull on one toggle. You're decreasing the air
speed on one side of the canopy. If you decrease it enough, you stall. I
personally worry that I misjudge the proper altitude for my hook turns. If I
initiate my toggle hook turn too low, one half of my canopy has little or no
lift generating airspeed. Without that airspeed, I have no flare power left
for one half of my canopy: I *will* land very hard.

However, if I initiate my front riser hook turn too low, I have not depleted
any of the flare power from either side of my canopy. I have all the flare I
need in both halves of the canopy. Maybe I'll have to do a cross wind
landing, but I'll have much better success with a canopy that's capable of
giving me a decent flare than one without.

>I don't do riser turns for two reasons. They seem to be more difficult than
>toggle turns.

They're generally slower turning than toggle turns. Which means that you have
to initiate them a bit higher, where your judgement of precisely how high you
are is less accurate. However, this is something that takes a bit of
practice. Eventually, it's not really that much more difficult.

>When do you release your front risers and use your toggles?

I like to release about a second before I flare. Usually something like:
pull on left front riser, come around 180 degrees, (If too high, pull on both
front risers), release, take a deep breath, flare. It's really easy to
identify that you're too low in the middle of the the hook turn. At that
point, just release the front riser and flare.

>Also, it seems to me that using too much front riser can easily collaspe a
>canopy.

Certainly, if you pull down too much on the front of your canopy, you risk
collapsing the canopy. However, I've never been able to get my sabre to
collapse doing this. On some jump, pull at 5000 and *try* and collapse your
canopy with your front risers. If you do, then you know what your limits are
for using front risers on landing.

>Proof may be in the fact that every collapsed canopy accident I read about
>seems to involve a front riser landing.

Hmmm.. all the collapsed canopy accidents I read about involve high wind days,
and landing behind obstacles. Landing in general is a dangerous thing to do
on a high wind day, at a DZ with many obstacles. *IF* you choose to jump in
these conditions, you should be extremely careful about doing any kind of hook
turn - either either riser, or toggle.

>It seems to me that one of the most dangerous things you
>can do is limit air pressure during a high speed landing.

I would think the most dangerous thing you can do is to cut off your means of
landing safely: i.e. your flare. Toggle hook turns just remove too much of my
flare for me to be comfortable with.

The above is not meant as any sort of edict dictating how anyone should
behave. It is my recommendation that those who perform hook turns use front
riser hook turns. It is my belief that this type of hook turn is
*significantly* safer than a toggle hook turn. However, if you are doing
hook turns, or intend to, you probably should establish your own ideas on
this subject and decide for yourself.



"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 22, 2001, 9:49 AM
Post #10 of 19 (1823 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

The debate is really between "hooking" versus "carving."

If you hook, it is essentially a one shot deal. You pull such a radical control input that you are level with your canopy. All the extra energy for turf surfing is momentum gained as you fall back under your canopy.
There are two disadvantages to hooking. First of all, hooking is a one shot deal and there is a limit to the amount of energy you can gain. This limit to the amount of energy is why toggle hooks have fallen out of fashion on the pro blade-running tour.
Secondly, while hooking, you have limited the amount of control you have while you are close to the planet. When you mis-judge a hook, it takes several seconds to get a canopy overhead. You are out of control for a few seconds while you wait for your canopy to re-appear overhead. Stabbing toggles may get a canopy overhead, but that desperate move leaves little energy for flaring. If you are really deep in the corner, even stabbing won't save you, If a planet smacks you before you have a canopy overhead, there is little you can do except smile at the ambulance driver.

Carving (with toggles or front risers or rear risers) is a whole other game. Since carving is not a one shot deal, you can carve for as long as your arm muscles last and gradually increase your velocity.
The safety advantage to carving is that if you get scared, you can release a front riser at any time and will have a canopy overhead almost instantaneously.

As for your original question about why some of the POPS toggle hook. It is the same answer as to why some POPS still jump pull-outs: it is too hard to teach old dogs new tricks.



freeflyguy  (D 24207)

Dec 22, 2001, 10:52 AM
Post #11 of 19 (1820 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice post Rob.

I don't really "Hook", myself. If I call it a hook turn, it meant that it was too low or dangerous. For the reasons you mentioned. The slow carve is the way to go, for safety and speed. It just may seem that it is not so "slow" on some canopies.

I agree with the point about it being dangerous to use front risers in the wind. At least more than normal. I had my elbow go to my chest the other day, initiating a front riser turn. But it was a very gusty day. I don't really know, but I think when you pull on that riser, it is possible to decrease the angle of attack on that one side so much, the wind then pushes on top of the canopy. Most people reccomend being conservative in wind anyway though.

j



des  (F 372)

Dec 23, 2001, 1:41 AM
Post #12 of 19 (1792 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

well, i guess i'm an "old time jumper",i always toggle hook,front risers are just too much hard work. i am not trying to impress anyone, just believe a hook turn is far and away the best way to land safely.it's all in the set up,if you are too low ,don't hook,do a brake turn if necessary,it's really bloody simple!
also i have found i just don't have the strength to front riser a tandem,so have to toggle hook.(haven't "crashed" a tandem since i started hooking them),just the odd bum slide.(been hooking tandems for nearly 3000 tandem jumps).
only time i crashed my stiletto was in a front riser carve,when i dropped the f---in toggle! dickhead!so just use toggle turns now.
just use good judgement.



riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 25, 2001, 10:07 AM
Post #13 of 19 (1738 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

des,
Sounds like most of your post would fit better on a tandems-only chat site.



des  (F 372)

Dec 26, 2001, 12:53 AM
Post #14 of 19 (1715 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

sorry, but i did mention stiletto landings too.



rendezvous  (C License)

Jan 7, 2002, 8:19 AM
Post #15 of 19 (1571 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

May be this is a very basic question but since I'm reading this discussion I would like to find out, so, whats the difference between hooks and carving. Infact what exactly is carving.



freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Jan 7, 2002, 8:23 AM
Post #16 of 19 (1567 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

carving= slow turn to final from a higher starting altitude. Not a "Snap hook" where you turn rapidly.

"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay


freeflyguy  (D 24207)

Jan 7, 2002, 10:19 AM
Post #17 of 19 (1546 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

Yah Clay, you are right.

But also, if somebody says they had a nice "carve" it might also mean, orbitting on your head or doing a big turn on your canopy surf.

We skydivers dont' seem to have a large vocabulary



freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Jan 7, 2002, 10:38 AM
Post #18 of 19 (1541 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

True...I guess it depends on your local dialect.......Sprekin Ze Deutch?

"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay


michael

Jan 17, 2002, 3:05 PM
Post #19 of 19 (1410 views)
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Re: Experienceed Jumpers Toggle Hooking [In reply to] Can't Post

>Infact what exactly is carving

Rendezvous,

Carving is generally a speed-gaining turn where the wing (ie the parachute above your head) remains loaded (with your suspended weight) throughout the manuever. This is opposed to something like the 'snap hook' described earlier where your ability to recover from the turn is limited momentarily while you pendulum out from the wing.

Carving is possible with toggles, front, and rear risers.

Michael





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