Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Wings with big canopies

 

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mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Aug 27, 2003, 2:42 PM
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Wings with big canopies Can't Post

I'm told the wings looks "pot bellied" with anything above a 120 in it... anyone found this?


trigger  (D 101390)

Aug 27, 2003, 3:05 PM
Post #2 of 26 (2497 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a few friends that jump Wings containers with sufficiently larger canopies than 120's.well 170's to be precise and they look good IMO


darkvapor

Aug 27, 2003, 3:05 PM
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Judge for yourself.

Wings W-13 with a Cobalt 170 + PD 160R.


(This post was edited by darkvapor on Aug 27, 2003, 3:06 PM)
Attachments: rigside.jpg (34.1 KB)


rickfri59  (A 42078)

Aug 27, 2003, 8:08 PM
Post #4 of 26 (2441 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Mine Smilehas a Sabre 190 and a PD 160 and has a nice tapered look to it. No bulging belly


Kris  (D 26033)

Aug 27, 2003, 9:29 PM
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen Skymedic's Wings with his Safire 189 in it and it is a really good looking rig with clean lines. No real bulge to it, just a nice sweep but his Wings is sized for it.

However, if you decide to overstuff a main into any container it's going to look a bit off unless you really spend time on the pack job.


skymedic  (C 33561)

Aug 27, 2003, 10:34 PM
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Re: [Kris] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Kris....my wings I had this year was different than last years wings...my new one is sized for a 149 Xfire2...and it still looks clean. love my wings!!!!SmileSmile


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 27, 2003, 11:26 PM
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a W-13 with a Heatwave 170 and a PDr-176. If anything, it looks sexy. Well porportioned with clean lines.

Its all about having the rig cut for the right size.


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Aug 27, 2003, 11:33 PM
Post #8 of 26 (2398 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone posting some pics would be great.

Ive got a couple of days to decide and im stuck between a couple of containers...

UnsureCrazy


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 27, 2003, 11:58 PM
Post #9 of 26 (2396 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Here ya go.
Attachments: geared-up-bck-2.jpg (40.2 KB)


skymedic  (C 33561)

Aug 28, 2003, 7:08 AM
Post #10 of 26 (2343 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a pic of my last one...it's a W21...made for a 218-m reserve..and a safire 189(really a 173)...fun rig...love it!!!

my new rig looks just about the same and it is a a W21-1..I am the only person inthe world with a 21-1. as I didn't want to downsize to a smaller reserve, Henri cut me a custom pattern for the main container and I was able to keep the big reserve and I will be able to go down to a 135 in this container comfortably....

WINGS ROCKS!!!!! oh yeah...I got mine in about 2 weeks or so...SmileSmileSmile


(This post was edited by skymedic on Aug 28, 2003, 7:09 AM)
Attachments: myrigsmall10002.jpg (25.4 KB)


poohbeer  (Student)

Aug 28, 2003, 8:14 AM
Post #11 of 26 (2332 views)
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Re: [skymedic] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm slowly finding info and thinking about stuff for when I eventually will buy my own rig.
I was planning on buying the biggest reserve possible as to get me down as safe as possible if I ever was to be knocked unconcious or anything like that but I also thought about not being able to jump in high wind conditions my main could do but my reserve not since it would rather qucikly fly backwards)
Have you thought of this with your 149f main + 218f reserve? Or is the max. windspeed almost the same for 149f and 218f chutes? Or is this for you 'oldtimers' not a problem for some reason I do not yet comprehend?


skymedic  (C 33561)

Aug 28, 2003, 8:19 AM
Post #12 of 26 (2327 views)
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Re: [poohbeer] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Thing is I'm a big boy...so even my reserve is loaded at about 1.1 or so....those aren't issue's for me. plus I dont jump in high winds. I prefer no wind fast landings. more winds take's the fun out of flying my canopy....


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Aug 28, 2003, 8:19 AM
Post #13 of 26 (2326 views)
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Re: [poohbeer] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

forward speed will be the same - its the downward speed that will decrease and thats the most important element in the sort of situation you describe.


poohbeer  (Student)

Aug 28, 2003, 8:30 AM
Post #14 of 26 (2316 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
forward speed will be the same - its the downward speed that will decrease and thats the most important element in the sort of situation you describe.

Mm, so even if I take a 280f parachute I will travel (horizontaly) just as fast as someone with a 97f?
Why is it then that students may not go up with higher winds? Should make the landing easier up to the point both the student AND the experts start going backwards no?
Or is that the point where you guys come in crosswind witch is unsafe for students?

(sorry to be hyjacking the topic with my stupid questions, this is the last one though)


skymedic  (C 33561)

Aug 28, 2003, 8:34 AM
Post #15 of 26 (2311 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
forward speed will be the same - its the downward speed that will decrease and thats the most important element in the sort of situation you describe.

This is not true...a smaller canopy will fly faster at the same given wing loading...smaller lineset, less material drag..etc etc....


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 28, 2003, 8:35 AM
Post #16 of 26 (2310 views)
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Re: [poohbeer] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

What was posted is a little wrong.

A canopy has a glide slope, on average that downward slop is about 30deg. So for instance, if you were 300ft above the ground, you would travel roughly 520ft over the ground before landing. Think of a right triangle.

Now apply different wingloadings to the same canopy.

A higher wingloading will travel down that glide slope faster then a lighter wingloading. So you'll be going faster forward and faster down.

Did that make sense or was my explaination confusing (which it probably was). Since when I teach that in the FJC, I use a dry-erase board and draw it out so it makes sense...


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Aug 28, 2003, 8:43 AM
Post #17 of 26 (2304 views)
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Re: [skymedic] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

your right - smaller canopy less drag... but what about two canopies the same, one loaded heavier than the other... I was led to understand that forward speed would stay roughly the same (about 15mph) but the decent rate would alter dramatically. Im happy to defer to anyone who knows different here.

an who cares about thread topics - a conversations a conversation... I posted the thread I can give permission to go off thread... Im learning here. (besides I've placed my container order now)


councilman24  (D 8631)

Aug 28, 2003, 8:49 AM
Post #18 of 26 (2300 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I have two customers with Wings with Raven II's and 180 to 210 sq ft mains. I'm not particularly happy with the flaps and corners of the reserve container. I don't believe that they are designed as good as they could be. The rigs on the whole look ok when packed. Of course these are big rigs and don't look as good as the smaller versions. I'm a very picky rigger and want the reserve containers to look good as well as function. I've never found a way to make these two rigs look as good as I'd like. But I doubt that anybody else would notice or care.

Terry


skymedic  (C 33561)

Aug 28, 2003, 8:54 AM
Post #19 of 26 (2296 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Now on that you are partialy correct....two exact same measured canopies...one loaded more than the other. the heavier one will both have increased forward...and increased descent speed....but following the same glide path(roughly) as the lighter one....


Kinaa

Aug 28, 2003, 12:34 PM
Post #20 of 26 (2256 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Main and reserve are 135sqft, and it is w-3 container.
Attachments: wings.jpg (38.1 KB)


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Aug 28, 2003, 12:50 PM
Post #21 of 26 (2247 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the question was about the effect of winds. Aggie, you're right about that in constant winds, because what you're really talking about is airspeed.

I think the original question was about groundspeed, which is why you back up under a lightly loaded canopy. If the forward component of your airspeed is 15 mph, and the wind has a horizontal component of 20 mph, then your groundspeed will be 5 mph backward, and that's why students don't jump in high winds. Relative to the AIR, they are still following that same triangle you draw on the dry erase board. Problem is that triangle is hauling ass backward over the ground.

Does this clear things up, or am I making it worse?

Brent


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 28, 2003, 1:00 PM
Post #22 of 26 (2242 views)
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Re: [bmcd308] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

The question was, but I was responding to the answer to the question, which didn't seem to be right, in reference to how the answer was written...

Reserve size safety should not be equated: "Well, I'll be safe in high-winds with this small reserve..." Since we all know that Mr. Murphy would have it that your first reserve ride would probably leave in in a no-wind/down-wind scenerio, on a very hot day, landing into someone's backyard.

So what I'm trying to say is buy a canopy that is right for your skill level, then if you don't feel comfortable jumping in high-winds, don't jump.


poohbeer  (Student)

Aug 29, 2003, 1:56 AM
Post #23 of 26 (2201 views)
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Re: [bmcd308] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think the original question was about groundspeed, which is why you back up under a lightly loaded canopy. If the forward component of your airspeed is 15 mph, and the wind has a horizontal component of 20 mph, then your groundspeed will be 5 mph backward, and that's why students don't jump in high winds. Relative to the AIR, they are still following that same triangle you draw on the dry erase board. Problem is that triangle is hauling ass backward over the ground.

Does this clear things up, or am I making it worse?

I did understand your explanatyion aggie, but as Brent said, that's on a no-wind day. The smaller (higher loaded) goes faster, you say so yourself. This means it still goes forward relative to the ground with winds of (example) 20mph. While if you need to pop that bigass reserve, that would go 5mph backwards.
Is this th (or one of the) reason(s) why everybody uses almost the same size reserve as their main is? I suppose it is, since it's the only reason I see for not carrying a big reserve (other then how it looks and what the container can handle)


skymedic  (C 33561)

Aug 29, 2003, 2:06 AM
Post #24 of 26 (2199 views)
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Re: [poohbeer] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont use a same size main/reserve....a smaller wing doesn't mean high wing loading...I can have a 218 raven and put a ton of lead on and still have a high wing loading...not a good thing but still can.


(This post was edited by skymedic on Aug 29, 2003, 2:08 AM)


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Aug 29, 2003, 7:47 AM
Post #25 of 26 (2172 views)
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Re: [poohbeer] Wings with big canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

>>Is this th (or one of the) reason(s) why everybody uses almost the same size reserve as their main is<<

Not everyone does this. Lots of people like a big reserve regardless of the size of their main. Some people get a tiny reserve that they could barely fly so that their container will be smaller and look cooler. Other people get a main and reserve that are similar in size on the theory that if they have two canopies out, the similar canopies will fly more compatibly than two canopies of very different sizes.

Gear choices relate a lot to what you're afraid of. You pick the situation you're most afraid of, and then you make gear choices that address it.

Are you afraid that you'll be tangled up in a ball of sh!t and fall to your death? Get a round reserve. Folks say they have a better chance of opening in adverse conditions, and they work better partially open than squares.

Are you afraid that your two out will turn into a downplane? Get similar sized main and reserve (conventional wisdom from PIA study - it appears that more combinations of main and reserve play nice than originally thought - search for Derek's test jump threads)

Are you afraid your container won't look as cool as the people with more jumps? Get a PD106R and a Navigator 200. Your rig will be as small as the guys with two 150's. Pack really carefully if you do this.

Are you afraid that you'll be freaked out if you cutaway and screw up a landing under your normal wing loading? Get a bigger reserve that will be more forgiving as you bring it in.

These analyses work for containers (see pull-out v. throw-out, pop top v. non pop top, etc.), RSLs, whether to have a Cypres, etc.

Brent


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