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What AAD would be OK?

 

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drop13  (A 36478)

Mar 22, 2001, 11:47 AM
Post #1 of 33 (3773 views)
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     What AAD would be OK?  

Hello everyone. This is my second season with my Rig, I will be buying a AAD this year. I would like some feed back by any skydiver with either a Sentinel MK-2000 or Cypres.
besides price what is the diff between them. Any and all help is important and appreciated. I can be contacted at DROP13@JUNO.COM Thanks again!



jayhfx  (B 6186)

Mar 22, 2001, 12:31 PM
Post #2 of 33 (3742 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

one works and one dosen't!!lol

ask your jm



Dutchboy  (A 37004)

Mar 22, 2001, 12:35 PM
Post #3 of 33 (3740 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

I would highly recommend the CYPRES. The others are mechanical (except the Astra) and are certainly better than nothing, but seem to be prone to misfire. I think there have been two deaths recently with FXC 12000's that did not operate.

The accuracy of the openning altitude with the CYPRES is better so you are less likely to end up with two canopies out unless you are pulling below 1200 ft.



MarkM  (C 35089)

Mar 22, 2001, 3:15 PM
Post #4 of 33 (3723 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
The others are mechanical (except the Astra) and are certainly better than nothing
Think so? I don't.

Get a Cypres or jump without an AAD.



impasto

Mar 23, 2001, 5:49 AM
Post #5 of 33 (3675 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

To offer advice on what you 'heard' or what you 'think' may have happened is not constructive. There has certainly been misfires/malfunctions in EVERY AAD on the market, including the CYPRES!

Here are the PROPERLY RESEARCHED reasons why I recommend an ASTRA... and please visit the manufacturers website (see the gear review section of dropzones.com)instead of listining to ill informed hearsay.

REASONS TO BUY ASTRA

Astra is designed, so that it is well suited to external mounting for high visibility, allows for easy "Gear check" on the Astra and is therefore a significant improvement to safety. (The CYPRES is mostly hidden after initial gear check)

The Astra is easily field tested, using the Cutter Test probe, for firing accuracy and function by any approved rigger using any test chamber that shows altitude and rate of descent. (SO IT CAN BE TESTED ON EVERY RESERVE REPACK)

Because the Astra can be functionally tested in the field there is no requirement for mandatory factory overhaul. (ASK ANY RIGGER HOW MUCH A CYPRES OVERHAUL COSTS - AND HOW LONG IT TAKES BEFORE YOU GET YOUR AAD BACK!)

Easy to install in most rigs using the approved "Cypres"
type installation method.

Simple and quick to operate, accessible butwell protected. Astra On/Off-switch operation is an advantage e.g. in a descending aircraft or under canopy, compared to a time consuming "multiple response" system, while at the same time preventing accidental operation.

The flashing indicator light, that shows correct program function, is a positive indication that the Astra Central Processing Unit is actually checking altitude and rate of decent.

Sensors are in the Altitude Control Unit, so the Astra is not attitude sensitive. If the sensor unit were in the battery pack inside the container, an "adjustment factor" would need to be added, leading to erroneous readings if unusual attitudes occur.

The Astra has a capacitor in the battery box to ensure that, as long as
the indicator light is flashing, there is always sufficient charge to
fire the cutter. Without a capacitor, it would be possible for a unit
to indicate a satisfactory battery condition but, there may not be sufficient
charge to fire the cutter. Robust machined aluminum Astra Control Unit
case prevents breakage. A similarly machined aluminum battery case prevents
the hazard of leaking acid into the reserve container. The smooth rounded
corners on the space saving low-volume battery-pack prevent wear spots
in the reserve container. Robust heavy-duty cable connections prevent
accidental disconnect or breakage. High level of EMF protection. US manufactured
and locally serviced, with a low recommended retail price and low replacement
battery price. The program design allows recovery of firing altitude data
for later analysis



MarkM  (C 35089)

Mar 23, 2001, 7:37 AM
Post #6 of 33 (3666 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Here are the PROPERLY RESEARCHED reasons why I recommend an ASTRA... and please visit the manufacturers website (see the gear review section of dropzones.com)instead of listining to ill informed hearsay.
You call reading some marketing blurb from a manufacturer's website "proper research"?

I'll stick to the "ill informed hearsay"; skydivers actually field testing this crap with thier lives.




miked10270  (D 10270)

Mar 24, 2001, 1:50 AM
Post #7 of 33 (3636 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

Hi there,

Cypres Vs Astra came up on the old threads... Check the archive. If I remember correctly the Cypres came out the clear winner! there have been articles on numerous incidents of the Astra AAD firing when it shouldn't, issues on moisture protection, service life & servicing.

While the Astra is cheaper, the Cypres came out as better value for money. Better support & service.

Then again, that wasn't from the manufacturer, it was just from opinions & experiences of individual skydivers... Granted, quite a lot of skydivers, but taken one by one they were all individuals.

Over the years Helmut Cloth has built up a deserved reputation for an almost paranoid attention to detail with the Cypres! While this has resulted in higher operating & servicing costs, the Cypres has remained the "industry standard" since it's inception. THis shows in the second-hand values of the Cypres. In effect they depreciate at a steady rate of about $100 per year, plus $30 per year as they move through the 4 year maintenance cycle. Almost all skydivers ARE happy to pay $130(ish)PA for their AAD, or perhaps more accurately for the peace of mind that a "reliable" AAD gives.

IMHO the Cypres more than justifies it's greater expense. This seems to be an area where reliability (percieved or actual) completely outweighs cost!

Mike D10270.



jbnote  (C 36083)

Mar 25, 2001, 1:21 AM
Post #8 of 33 (3611 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

Drop13,
Yes, the Astra, Cypres, Sentinel, FXC have all had misfires before. What it comes down to are several things, these are what I made my decision on as well.

1) The cypres has had the least amount of misfires in their production history on actual skydivers. This makes it the most reliable AAD before you fall below the hard-deck. Premature openings probably kill more people than partial malfunctions. I have no evidence for that, but I would rather have a cut-away at 1000ft. than a premature deployment during any type of skydive.
2) What does the industry use the most? Look around your DZ, do the majority of people use a cypres? The answer is probably yes. There is a good reason for that. Since I have been jumping (a little over a year) I have seen the cypres AAD save 3 peoples lives. Unfortunately at a different DZ an FXC was another jumpers demise. What does your rigger jump? Probably a cypres. What do people on world records jump? Cypreses. There are even some DZ's (although not enough) that will not let you jump their planes without a cypres.
Ask your rigger, and then call the gear store you plan to purchase from. Ask how many FXC's and Astras and Sentinels they sell. Then ask how many cypreses they sell. Talk to any skydiver that's been in the sport for more than 10 years and they'll say that the cypres is the best thing to happen to skydiving since parachutes.

Jeremy



BarrettJ99  (D 24173)

Mar 25, 2001, 6:55 PM
Post #9 of 33 (3589 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

Personally I would not jump without my Cypres. I like the idea of the factory 4 yr test over having your rigger test it during repack. How many riggers out there actually have a pressure test chamber for this purpose anyway? Just a guess, but I would say not many. I think another thing that you might want to consider is resale value. If you're going to sell the unit when you get a new rig, there are definitely more skydivers out there that would buy the Cypres over any other AAD on the market. I have seen alot of AAD's at some of the bigger West coast DZ's and I would say that 90 percent of what I see is Cypres.

-T1
C-30757


miked10270  (D 10270)

Mar 26, 2001, 1:24 PM
Post #10 of 33 (3568 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

BTW...

The idea of Airtec & SSK getting ALL the Cypres' back near enough together every 4 years is so that the units aren't just tested against definite values in a pressure chamber, the units are also compared and any trends to fault are spotted & corrected. The manufacturer 4 year check is somewhat exhaustive & (as I understand it) is done on a "no-profit" basis! Any faults in a Cypres are just fixed by the manufacturer IF there are any.

As for the "12 year life" of a Cypres: All things degrade through time! Even solid state electronics (that's why ALL aircraft components are "lifed"). Airtec are simply following suit and presently believe that at some point after 12 years some of the units may begin to malfunction. Since absolute reliability is vital in this component, it has been given a 12 year life.

Mike D10270.



MC208B  (A 35654)

Mar 26, 2001, 11:06 PM
Post #11 of 33 (3544 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

Hey Mike. Here in the good ol USA all aircraft components are not "lifed". Very experienced A&P mechanic here. Avionics have no life limitations at all (except batteries). Only reason to change them is they become obsolete or can't economically be repaired. As for Astra vs Cypress, well, they're both pretty darn reliable. I use an Astra and am very happy and secure knowing it will work properly. Shit, some of you people sound like pitchmen from the manufaturers! The bottom line here is there is no guarentee that any of them will work. Boneheads that go on the Cypress load at Lost Prairie amuse me. How about altitude awareness?!?



wildblue  (D 26027)

Mar 27, 2001, 9:55 AM
Post #12 of 33 (3523 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Personally I would not jump without my Cypres
Are you serious?!?



Vlad  (A 38183)

Mar 28, 2001, 2:16 PM
Post #13 of 33 (3487 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

I'm with Wildblue. AAD is just a backup, you should forget that you have it ! DOn't you feel capable to safely open your parachute by yourself ???



SpeedRacer  (B 26329)

Mar 29, 2001, 8:20 AM
Post #14 of 33 (3465 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

Yeah, I have a Cypres. But I always jump as if it wasn't there. I don't "rely" on it. Its just for backup. (I jumped without it, ironically, on safety day, because I sent it in for the 4 year maintenance.) But I wouldn't go so far as to never jump without a Cypres. Half the skydivers I know don't even have one.

Speed Racer
"Blue Skies, Red eyes, Sore thighs!"


propblast

Mar 29, 2001, 10:08 PM
Post #15 of 33 (3441 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

How exactly does the Cypres deploy the reserve?
-e



Craig

Mar 30, 2001, 6:21 AM
Post #16 of 33 (3428 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
How exactly does the Cypres deploy the reserve?
It measures barometric pressure. If the CYPRES draws the conclusion that you are low from the parameters it has measured it should cut the reserve closing loop(s).

Craig



skreamer

Mar 30, 2001, 9:01 AM
Post #17 of 33 (3418 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Boneheads that go on the Cypress load at Lost Prairie amuse me.
Please excuse my ignorance, but what is that 'Cypres load' referring to?

/s

[drop till you party!]


Craig

Mar 30, 2001, 9:42 AM
Post #18 of 33 (3411 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Please excuse my ignorance, but what is that 'Cypres load' referring to?
Most likely some jumpers that use a CYPRES and get together to make a load for a jump?

Craig



Zennie

Mar 30, 2001, 9:50 AM
Post #19 of 33 (3411 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
It measures barometric pressure. If the CYPRES draws the conclusion that you are low from the parameters it has measured it should cut the reserve closing loop(s).
Not to be overly-technical... well, OK, I will be since I'm an engineer and can't help myself...

Doesn't the Cypres actually measure barometric pressure as well as it's rate of change? It measures pressure to determine altitude and rate of change to determine fall rate. If it concludes that you're falling too fast at X feet, it cuts the closing loop.

Of course, it can't do both simultaneously due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, but... oh... nevermind... Wink


------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


Zennie

Mar 30, 2001, 9:53 AM
Post #20 of 33 (3411 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

Correcting myself.... you're right. It measures only barometric pressure. It calculates rate of change.

Now you see why I drive my wife crazy with my hyper-technicalities. Smile

------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


propblast

Mar 30, 2001, 10:31 AM
Post #21 of 33 (3405 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

Not to show my ignorance but I guess my question is how it deploys it after its come to the conclusion your falling to far to fast. I cant see it being a spring loaded device. I remember reading somewhere that its considereda destructive device?
-e



Craig

Mar 30, 2001, 10:42 AM
Post #22 of 33 (3405 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

This is what the manual says (taken from .pdf format so don't know how it will format)...snipped to keep it brief.

"Every time CYPRES is switched on it will calibrate to ground elevation by measuring
the air pressure several times in a short period of time and taking the average value
as the value for ground level."

"The processing unit contains a factory-programmed microprocessor that is capable
of real-time calculations of the jumper's altitude and rate of descent on the basis of
barometric pressure.

By monitoring this data, certain criteria are generated from which conclusions are
drawn. Should the conclusion be that the jumper is in a dangerous situation (i.e. still
in freefall at a low altitude) the processing unit triggers the release unit to open the
reserve container.

The release unit or Emergency Opening System (EOS) for the reserve container is
completely independant of the rig's system, because it does not pull the ripcord pin
out of the closing loop but actually cuts the loop inside the reserve container to release
the pilot chute."


In reply to:
Now you see why I drive my wife crazy with my hyper-technicalities.
I don't have a wife to drive crazy, but have been known to annoy others into that "blank-stare" state.Tongue

Craig



Zennie

Mar 30, 2001, 10:51 AM
Post #23 of 33 (3403 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

I'm going off memory here, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Your closing loop passes through a hole in the cutter component of the device. One side has an anvil and the other side has a cutter blade. An explosive charge fires the cutter blade into the anvil, severing the closing loop.

Because it uses an explosive charge, some airlines got bent out of shape over whether it violated FAA regulations. That's why Cypres issues a card to carry with you when you pass through airport security.

------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


MC208B  (A 35654)

Mar 30, 2001, 12:04 PM
Post #24 of 33 (3397 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

Skreamer. Cypress load is for those that have had an AAD save (any make AAD) I know of a local DZ where two new AFF graduates doing a 2 way both had their AAD's fire and save their asses! Altitude awareness people!!!



wmblaine
Deleted
Mar 30, 2001, 3:13 PM
Post #25 of 33 (3381 views)
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     Re: What AAD would be OK? [In reply to]  

I know it may sound biased, but I have talked it out with EVERYONE I have ever jumped with (quite a few and in a couple different countries) and, well, basically the way it was laid out to me (and my belief) is....

Jump CYPRES or DON'T jump (not at all, just with any other AAD)!!!!!

Cypres' are proven (ask anybody who jumps)!

So, good luck, I know it is a tough choice when considering funds, but do what is right....

Buy Cypres!!!

Cheers,


Arohanui,
BTongue
NZPF A-2584


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