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Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic)

 

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jmfreefly  (D License)

Aug 25, 2003, 7:14 AM
Post #1 of 34 (6396 views)
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Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) Can't Post

 
Hey everyone. We had a malfunction this weekend at our DZ that I had not seen before (although I am sure it has happened). I figured I would post a pic and some text about it -- there are some lessons learned that didn't strike me until I thought about it for a while.

Unfortunately, this happend to a fellow jumper who was borrowing one of my rigs.Frown Lost my freebag and handles, and he is strapped for cash. Big bummer. This, btw, is pretty third handish. I talked at length with the jumper, though, so I think I got it right.

Anyway. He had his not-quite-yet-a-jumper packing the rig, but he essentially wasn't watching the packjob (as recounted by another packer). He gets on the load. Flight to altitude.

Before jumprun, gets a pin check (there is a bit of confusion about who it was that pin checked him, but best recounts are that the tandem master he was videoing checked him). I had seen him getting pin checks on more than one of the earlier loads.

He climbs out, Tandem gets in the door. (BTW, this is a grand caravan, no step). Upon exit, jumper claimed to have 'hit or snagged something'. On his video, you see him spin hard to the right, but it doesn't happen until you see part of the underside of the plane. (He is shooting with a .42 lens, so it is hard to judge distances,etc.)

Jumper says that he 'felt somthing flapping/not right' after that. Video uneventful. Tandem pulls. He backslides away, waves, and pitches.

He feels the PC inflate, but doesnt feel the container open. He reaches back 'to see if he can fix it' but instantly realizes it is a lost cause. He cuts away, and deploys the reserve (high speed).

Because he is frantic (at this point), his body position is less than optimal, and opens in a line twist. Subsequently to get out of the line twist, he instinctively drops the handles.

Upon inspection on the ground, this pic is what we found. It shows the pin pushed all the way through the closing loop, so the loop is around the webbing that attaches the pin to the bridle.

Analyzing this, we thought of 2 major root causes:
1) possibly a packing error
2) pushing the pin through either on the plane, or on exit.

Because the consensus was that he got a pin check, it is hard to immediately say it was #1. However, on my rig, I keep my closing loops pretty dang tight. It would have had to been a fairly loose loop (maybe the jumper had loosened the loop?), and the impact force would have had to have been at a 'perfect' angle to push the pin all the way through. The fact that the pins are curved, generally make the pin turn versus push further in.

We tried on the ground to replicate this possibility, but we couldnt do it (with the reserve out).

Anyway, my own personal lessons learned are:
1) pin checks are -always- a good idea. I usually check my own by feel when not wearing gloves. During the fall and winter, I get another jumper to give me a pin check.

2) Do your best to try to keep your rig off of snag points. It is very very easy to lean up against the plane to relax. But, it is not just your reserve pin that you have to worry about.

3) Know your packers

4) I make my own closing loops, and I generally make the fingertrapped loop pretty small, but usually wide enough for a pullup to go through. Unfortunately, this is also enough to let the head of the pin go through also. So, I am going to re-do my closing loops, ensuring that the loop is small enough to prevent this from happening again.


Anybody else have thoughts?

j
Attachments: containerlock-web.JPG (30.4 KB)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Aug 25, 2003, 7:44 AM
Post #2 of 34 (6343 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

How much tension was required to normally close the rig? If it was a tad loose that could make the pin slide easier.

I've also seen it before where a jumper sits in a plane (182) and puts enough of his weight on the bottom part of the container it basically compressed the main more and let the pin slide around more. Was the jumper leaning backo n the rig in the plane?


betzilla  (D 23089)

Aug 25, 2003, 8:03 AM
Post #3 of 34 (6312 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

Weird. I can't imagine how that would happen except during packing -- you'd need the container and main compressed, but the closing loop extended in order for the pin to get its eye through the closing loop. Not necessarily blaming the packer, as a thorough gear check on the ground, before gearing up, should have (in a perfect world) caught this. But a lot can happen when people are distracted or rushed, so who knows...

But it's a good argument for:

Finger trapped closing loops, with the loop part small enough that the pin's eye can't pass thru. And of course they should be the proper length, not loose.

Thorough gear checks on every single jump, before gearing up.

I'm so glad your friend is okay! Handles and freebags are replaceable, but pals aren't. Smile


jmfreefly  (D License)

Aug 25, 2003, 8:04 AM
Post #4 of 34 (6312 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Yes, in my post I identify that I keep my closing loops tight (and this was my rig he was jumping).

"However, on my rig, I keep my closing loops pretty dang tight."

How much tension in lbs.? Um.. I never have used a scale on it.. it is enough to make your hands red with a pull up. And enough that the packers grumble about it.

As for 'leaning up against stuff', I cant say, since I wasnt on the load, and the jumper did not mention anything about it when questioned. However, this caravan doesn't have too many places to lean against stuff (but there are a few).

But, if that was the case, then it would have had to happen between pin check and exit.. Usual course of business is to have this checked just prior to jump run. And most jumpers I know are on their knees at that point and not leaning against things.

The caravan -does- have straddle benches, which are sort of a pain.. having the tandems slide down one often makes the people on the other lean away to let them by.. maybe that is an opportunity to affect the pin.. but I tend to doubt it.


jmfreefly  (D License)

Aug 25, 2003, 8:18 AM
Post #5 of 34 (6299 views)
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Re: [betzilla] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Yep. He was really bummed about pitching my sh!t, and the fact that he doesnt have much money at all, but I kept saying "hey, I would rather have you here, and not have to go to a funeral".

Funny (not really) thing is, he was refraining from jumping his gear because he was worried about a pillow cutaway on his rig. I guess a rigger had 'built' the pillow because he didn't have one available from Sunpath before he left the west coast. Several riggers looked at it, and couldn't comment on it unless they unstitched it and looked at the construction of it.

So, good thing (in some ways) that it was my gear he had the malfunction on, not to have to test that pillow in real life emergency.

His ribs hurt pretty bad from the terminal reserve ride too.


matttrudeau

Aug 25, 2003, 12:34 PM
Post #6 of 34 (6177 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never seen anything like that before. I have no idea how that could have happened without a lot of intentional force being applied to it. The only reason I can think of is the packer wedged the pin in very tight and just closed it up. If this is the case, someone should have caught it during pin checks. Crazy!

(This post was edited by matttrudeau on Aug 25, 2003, 12:39 PM)


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Aug 25, 2003, 12:42 PM
Post #7 of 34 (6164 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

All I can say is wow - what a blumber.

Thank god he's ite.

Pack your own shit always in my humble opinion.

Blue ones...


scottjaco

Aug 25, 2003, 12:46 PM
Post #8 of 34 (6161 views)
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Re: [matttrudeau] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

Ya,

my closing pin is so tight, it would be impossible to stick the pin in that far. A packer must have done this, I don't see this happening on the plane, assuming you have a secure main pin flap? Even then, your closing loop would have to be very lose.

I'd kill the packer who did it!!

scott


TheMonkey  (D License)

Aug 25, 2003, 12:56 PM
Post #9 of 34 (6151 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'd kill the packer who did it!!

the part jm left out was that the packer is his girlfriend....


BMFin

Aug 25, 2003, 1:33 PM
Post #10 of 34 (6128 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd kill the packer who did it!!


I would just blame my self if I ever used a packer whos "not quite yet a jumper"


Interesting mal though. Luckily noone was hurt. Thanks for sharing..


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Aug 25, 2003, 1:50 PM
Post #11 of 34 (6107 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

>I'd kill the packer who did it!!

Interesting... I did'nt kill the packer that packed me a complete step through this weekend. And ther ewould be a lot of dead bodies laying around DZ's if we killed any packer that packed a mal.

If your not packing for your self... you pays your money, you takes your chances...


hookitt  (D License)

Aug 25, 2003, 1:55 PM
Post #12 of 34 (6101 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

Very interstingly negative outlook..

Quote:
I'd kill the packer who did it!!

I believe it's bad form to kill all the packers, (yourself included) who've made mistakes.

Instead of Squashing the life out of the packer who tried ( I say tried cuz It was noticed prior to jumping) to pack me a collapse pilot chute AND additionally a certain pilot chute in tow, I carefully showed him what he'd done.

To the surprise of the rigger who asked him to help out, the person that was training with me, and the packer himself, he learned a valuable lesson to share with others.

So in short... lighten up with your bad self Wink

That had to be done while packing. A quick Pin Check revealed a fully seated pin... that's what the person who looked at it was expecting.

-
-


(This post was edited by hookitt on Aug 25, 2003, 1:56 PM)


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Aug 25, 2003, 2:10 PM
Post #13 of 34 (6087 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That had to be done while packing. A quick Pin Check revealed a fully seated pin... that's what the person who looked at it was expecting.

Exactly. See what is there in a gear check. NOT what you expect to be there! Pilots do this all the time. It's something we fight. See what's there, not what you expect to be there.

I packed a PC in tow when I was learning to pack. It was caught on a gear check by the JM. Man, did I learn a lot that day. Course, it didn't stop me from packing a PC in tow for a friend (after approx 3,000 pack jobs later) by pushing the bridle too far up under the side flap leading the the PC pouch. I even knew Reflexes had had an issue with bridles snagging the stiffener on the bottom flap causing a PC in tow. And yet, it happened. I'd like to think that it had help from the jumper during their gear check but if he says he didn't push it further I got to believe him. I apologized. Later on he thanked me because he road the reserve on the other rig I assembled for him. So, I did do some good work. Crazy


drenaline  (C License)

Aug 25, 2003, 8:35 PM
Post #14 of 34 (5989 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'd kill the packer who did it!!
Interesting choice of words.

I wonder whose fault is it, the packer who might of packed a pin like that or the jumper for been over confident on his packer and not checking his pin and PC.

Lesson to learn: always check your own pin and PC before puting on your rig.

The 2 DZ I went to the US the other jumpers checked theyr pins only on the plane before jumping, I wonder what would of happen if the PC is still collapsed? learn to check the gear before boarding the plane.


174fps  (C 3060)

Aug 26, 2003, 7:29 AM
Post #15 of 34 (5901 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

Looking at the pic the closing loop is clearly too long
you can see the grommet from the underneath flap.
The closing sequence for "most " rigs is bottom, top, right, left.
In the pic it is left .right.
how inexperienced was the packer?


jmfreefly  (D License)

Aug 26, 2003, 8:27 AM
Post #16 of 34 (5870 views)
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Re: [174fps] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Three points:

1) No, you can not deduce from the picture that the closing loop is too long. The pic was taken with the reserve out of the reserve tray, and this does loosen up the flaps. I haven't done anything further with the rig (including insepecting the loop out of the container). When I will do, I will follow up with what I find.

2) As far as -I- remember, both Javelins and Mirages close left, right. I would guess that Javs and Mirages make up a higher percentage than other rigs, but that is a moot point.

Packer was probably used to the jumper's javelin.

In truth, I have packed my rig left, right. And as far as I can see it makes not one iota of a difference. However, SRI does say right, left.


3) As I mentioned, the packer was 'not quite yet a jumper'.. what I didn't mention is that she was a very low-time packer also. And yes, Dan is right, it was the jumper's girlfriend, which is a double bummer for him. It also makes me a tiny bit wary of the jumper 'protecting' his girlfriend if it was her fault. Ultimately that just hinders the learning process for her if it was a mistake.

Honestly, I would rather it be a packing error, as it is easy to explain, and simple to correct.

I don't like having to feel like I have a fragile object on my back, as I would be yelling at everyone on the plane 'dont touch my rig! dont touch my rig!' I have a lot of respect for my gear, and do my best to reduce the amount of 'touching/bumping/etc' that happens to it, but I can't eliminate it entirely.

j


(This post was edited by jmfreefly on Aug 26, 2003, 12:40 PM)


freeflybella  (D 21113)

Aug 26, 2003, 12:50 PM
Post #17 of 34 (5821 views)
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Re: Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

I also had a boyfriend (a very experienced jumper) pack me a total.

I was borrowing gear and didn't know how to pack (or check) a pull-out.

I assumed he did or wouldn't have offered to pack for me.

Lesson learned for me: Check your own gear
It's ultimately YOUR responsibility. Even those who love you and have your best interests at heart can make mistakes.

Question re: posted incident -
Is it possible that the packer pulled the pin through the loop by extracting a pullup cord improperly?


hookitt  (D License)

Aug 26, 2003, 1:21 PM
Post #18 of 34 (5799 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

You can count on it being a packing error. There really isn't another way for it to happen.

People often check their gear and miss stuff. I've re-routed RSL's, re-seated pins Both mains and reserves.... and more... just after some one donned their rig, and also on the plane.

The key to a gear check is to look for every thing to be correct.

Is the bridle routed correctly... Yes
Is the pin seated correctly... Yes.
... and so on for the rest of your gear.

People tend to look for something wrong. After not seeing any thing wrong over and over, it becomese easy to see what's expected.

Whoever did the gear check expected to see a fully seated pin. The bridle probably covered the pin and it looked fully seated. It WAS fully seated... and then some.

The person who put the rig on his back probably did the same thing. Opened the flap and sure enough it's seated... shut the flap and away he went.

Seeing what is expected instead of what is really there is extremely common. It's only from these mistakes that we learn and see what's really there.

diverdriver's reply states it quite well.
Quote:
..See what's there, not what you expect to be there.


jmfreefly  (D License)

Aug 26, 2003, 2:48 PM
Post #19 of 34 (5776 views)
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Re: [freeflybella] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I have heard that same story about pull outs from various people. Not very uncommon.

This is a little bit more uncommon.. eh?

And yes, I was theorizing the pull-up cause, but in truth, I just don't see it.. that closing loop would have to be VERY loose to let the friction of the pull up pull the pin through.. I will have to play with some scenarios to see if it is even feasible.


SweCow  (D 11213)

Aug 27, 2003, 1:45 AM
Post #20 of 34 (5734 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

I pack my Javelin, left, right... It makes the bridle pack way tighter... Otherwise I dont know any oter good reason to have a specific order... Anyone?


ernokaikkonen  (D 12)

Aug 27, 2003, 4:09 AM
Post #21 of 34 (5713 views)
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Re: [SweCow] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

The one reason I've heard(I think by Hooknswoop right here) for a "right-left" closing order is the possibility of a bridle snagging on the right flap if the rig is packed "left-right". See attachment. Some rigs have asymmetrical side flaps, so they might not close up neatly if they're not packed in the right order. Consult your manual.
Attachments: bridle.png (3.96 KB)


jmfreefly  (D License)

Aug 27, 2003, 9:02 AM
Post #22 of 34 (5661 views)
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Re: [ernokaikkonen] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
As quoted by Paige from Sunrise Rigging International for the reason Wings has it stated right left in their manual:


"
In the past, the spring loaded p/c method of deployment required that
you close the container bottom top right left so for consistency's sake,
we simply recommend that way to close all of our rigs.

Thanks,
Paige
"

But your sketch made me think a bit. However, almost all of the mfgs flaps are curved there.. so I don't see a high chance of that actually holding upon deployment.

As for the Javelin, I used to have an older OJ (97 I think), and to keep the flap secure during sitfly, I had a spandex keeper installed on the underside of the top flap (the one with the grommet). In order to stow the bridle correctly, and use the keeper, the bridle had to split the right and left flaps -- thus it had to be closed left, right.

Most Jav owners I know split the flaps with the bridle also.


jmfreefly  (D License)

Sep 3, 2003, 8:27 AM
Post #23 of 34 (5510 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) UPDATE [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I inspected the closing loop, and it looks almost twice as long as I remember it being.

I will double check this once I get the rig back from getting repacked.

ALSO, my freebag/PC/poptop showed up at the dz the next weekend. Someone found it in their yard.. and I am assuming it was that day or the next.. since we had rain and I see no signs of being in the rain. However, it is impossible to tell, and I couldnt speak to them.

Any thoughts on integrity testing a PC?

Pisser is that I already got the replacement parts that Friday (very quick turnaround by Sunrise.. kudos). :-\

DOUBLE ALSO.. Inspected my rig with my rigger, and found that the left reserve flap has had the first few stitches damaged where it meets the 'bottom' near the bottom reserve flap. Surmizing that it was the terminal opening that caused it.

Pics coming tonight, and fwding on to sunrise..

j


Premier Remster  (C License)

Sep 3, 2003, 8:56 AM
Post #24 of 34 (5483 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) UPDATE [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Pisser is that I already got the replacement parts that Friday

Now you wont have to wait the next time you loose your freebag! (no, I'm not wishing that on you either....Smile)


eflynn  (B 16844)

Sep 3, 2003, 12:21 PM
Post #25 of 34 (5431 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] Container Lock/PC in Tow - Malfunction (pic) [In reply to] Can't Post

A simple pin check would have prevented my mishap.
Attachments: pcit_pcit-1.jpg (37.7 KB)


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