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Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers

 

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sunshine  (D License)

Aug 24, 2003, 6:18 PM
Post #1 of 72 (2007 views)
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Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers Can't Post

After a 5way jump i did, i had a bad opening. My canopy opened hard, then immediately took a hard dive to the left. (I beleive my right brake came unstowed upon opening). I tried to pull on my right riser and ended up using both hands to pull it hard enough to stop the dive. Anyhoo, during this another jumper was coming at me under canopy, so when i saw him i continued pulling the right riser to make a hard turn to avoid him.

I was in the packing area dropping my gear when this person walks in and starts yelling at me for cutting him off. I told him i did not cut him off and tried to explain my opening to him. Anyhoo, he continued yelling, and i said i refused to talk to him about it until he was calmed down and there wasn't a crowd of people listening.

Now i know i didn't cut him off, but thats not the issue. In my opinion, this person should've asked me to come talk to him and we should've had the conversation in private. I think to walk into a crowded packing area yelling, was the wrong way to handle such a thing.

So has this ever happened to anyone, and do you think it should be talked about in front of a crowd, or should this guy have asked me to come talk to him in private?


CrazyIvan  (A 43359)

Aug 24, 2003, 6:25 PM
Post #2 of 72 (1984 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

If that happened to me (me being the "agravated" party) I'd be very upset yes, but my reaction would be more like a question: Hey Sunny...What the hell was that?, giving you a chance to tell me that you fucked up or was a boo-boo, but yelling like this guy, is just not civilized.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Aug 24, 2003, 6:38 PM
Post #3 of 72 (1972 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

No matter how angry I may be at someone I try to take a few minutes to calm down before approaching them. I've never seen any good come from the type of scene you described no matter how "correct" the person may/may not have been.

These types of things should be dealt with quietly and calmly. The lessons learned should be stated publically IMO.

I do have a question though, was this a jumper from the same group or a jumper from a previous group?

Blue skies
Ian


Squeak  (E 1313)

Aug 24, 2003, 6:46 PM
Post #4 of 72 (1964 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no probelm with ppl discussing issues in front of others. (vicarious learning) But i have a big problem with ppl Yelling or barking at me. I tend to go straight to the aggressive defensive. So I probably would have handled it very poorlyUnsure


freeflygoddess  (B 26155)

Aug 24, 2003, 7:05 PM
Post #5 of 72 (1954 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have no probelm with ppl discussing issues in front of others. (vicarious learning) But i have a big problem with ppl Yelling or barking at me. I tend to go straight to the aggressive defensive. So I probably would have handled it very poorlyUnsure

Me too. I wouldn't mind being talked to infornt of others, just for others input on the situation. However I too get super defensive and I probably would have been yelling back or worse. It would make great DZ Soap Opera though.


(This post was edited by freeflygoddess on Aug 24, 2003, 7:06 PM)


Skyrose7  (D 26573)

Aug 24, 2003, 7:29 PM
Post #6 of 72 (1938 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

I definately think that this should have been dealt with more privately. I think it is rude to deal with that kind of situation in front of everyone, especially when the details are not clear. I probably would have escalated the situation and gotten angry...just because the person acted like a jerk.


sunshine  (D License)

Aug 24, 2003, 7:40 PM
Post #7 of 72 (1929 views)
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Re: [Skyrose7] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just such a calm person by nature. It takes a lot to get me to the point where i'll yell. Everyone that knows me, knows i'm very safety conscious and a very conservative canopy pilot. My canopy was having a possible mal and i chose to deal with it. If this other person was close enough to me, he should've recognized something wasn't right with my canopy and got the hell away from me. Thats my opinion anyway.


dterrick  (B 5079)

Aug 24, 2003, 8:00 PM
Post #8 of 72 (1912 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:

So has this ever happened to anyone, and do you think it should be talked about in front of a crowd, or should this guy have asked me to come talk to him in private?

Heya Sushine!

It's hard to believe anyone could be angry towards YOU - ever the smily cheery person you are. without reading further into it, your 'other party' had an asshat kinda reaction to the situation.

ABSOLUTELY this should have been discussed - in the landing area and once clear of the target area - beyond that, any griping is just perpetuating ass-hattedness.

I'd like to think that ALL skydivers are rational and level headded about all things but we've all come from different places and been through differnet situations. We react differently to the same situations because of this. Still, if this person is not prepared to enter a rational dialogue after the fact then I think you have (or should) reduce the pool of jumpers you share air with by one... at least for a while.

Now smile, dammit SmileSmileSmile

-Dave

PS: yes, it did happen to me. Once (my fault, as a very low time jumper with a moment of inattention). And the only other time I've been "too near " someone on final (we had converging patterns on a light wind day in a Cessna DZ with no fixed pattern) - I pulled a 180 and landed out to avoid the conflict. I received a 'thank-you for bailing for me, Dave' which I thought was a VERY cool and skydiver-like comment to make.


SkydiverRick  (D 13360)

Aug 24, 2003, 8:18 PM
Post #9 of 72 (1901 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

As soon as someone starts yelling at a person they stop listening. Kind of counter productive if you ask me. I would discuss it with them quietly when I calmed down. If that didn't help I'd pass it on to the dz management.


scottjaco

Aug 24, 2003, 9:14 PM
Post #10 of 72 (1878 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you talk to him after a while? How did he act then?

Anyway, the closest thing I've experienced was at Perris. After a good spot, a two way exited before me, I let them fall to a 45 degree angle, then exited. The problem is, they decided to pull at 4K
I do freestyle and pull at 3K (if the spot is good).

When I got to the ground, the girl said, wow, you fell right past me. She thought I didn't give them enough room before jumping.

The guy and girl were both AFF instructors from Las Vegas. SKYGODS!

I snapped back and said "Dude, you see that sign over by the manifest office?, it says if you are pulling higher than 3K, you have to inform the pilot and manifest, if you pull high at Perris, you have to jump LAST! to avoid people flying into each other." I pointed out that they were the experts, why are they pulling so high?

Basically I put half the blame on them, I flew past this chick at 4K and she looked like a bird, I don't think I was that close! You can have a pretty distorted view in freefall anyway.

After talking to them, they actually were pretty cool people.....I was a little defensive at the time because I was new up there and I wasn't going to tolerate any SKYGOD bullshit!

If the problem gets too out of hand, get the DZO involved.

scott


Kris  (D 26033)

Aug 24, 2003, 10:17 PM
Post #11 of 72 (1856 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I let them fall to a 45 degree angle, then exited.

The 45-degree angle trick doesn't work and will get you into trouble someday.Unimpressed

http://www.dropzone.com/...orum.cgi?post=286823
http://www.dropzone.com/...orum.cgi?post=624800

*edited to fix url


(This post was edited by Kris on Aug 24, 2003, 11:24 PM)


skyjames  (D 22308)

Aug 24, 2003, 10:28 PM
Post #12 of 72 (1853 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
After a 5way jump i did, i had a bad opening.
My canopy opened hard, then immediately took a hard dive to the left. (I beleive my right brake came unstowed upon opening). I tried to pull on my right riser and ended up using both hands to pull it hard enough to stop the dive.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bad opening, was it whack you senseless bad? Your canopy opened, this is good. You didn't do a canopy control check, the canopy did it for you. It's understandable that the gray area gets larger, but you say you *think* your right brake came unstowed.
Pardon me ... you think the brake came unstowed? You landed the canopy, obviously you had control of it at flare time (good thing too)

When you did reach for the brake toggles, was one different than the other, as in one flapping in the breeze and the other still stowed?
You don't mention your pull attitude.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyhoo, during this another jumper was coming at me under canopy, so when i saw him i continued pulling the right riser to make a hard turn to avoid him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You just did a 5 way, you don't say what aircraft you jumped from, nor what exit place you had, 1st, 2nd, etc or last. You don't say if the jumper that took issue with you was on your 5 way, or if he was on a different exit.

What I a can see from your post is:

After the 5 way jump, (say 4K breakoff) you track ...

Takes you to 3K or about ... altitude please?

Your canopy opened and (whatever kind of opening) it controlled you, not the opposite.

You controled the canopy after it told you it wasn't going to fly right. (I am still not sure when you left the risers and switched to toggles)

Then:

You had a close encounter of the canopy kind.

You landed safely. YES! (as it should be)

Soon after landing an angry jumper says you cut him off.

I am having a difficult time picturing this happining, not the jumper being angry, not your bad opening being corrected with riser input ... I am having a difficult time seeing how this other jumper happened to be in the same area you were in after your opening, with the claim "you cut him off", while you were fighting a canopy above your hard deck.

Then again all this could have happened before your final.

Random thoughts:

That had to be a really low opening you had, from what I know, cutting someone off is normally done on final, not directly after opening.

If this *close encounter* was just after opening, more than a public display of anger could have occured and good it didn't. Actually it doesn't matter when it occured, this scene sucks.

Think you are right? No problem, most DZ's have an ST&A that are more than willing to dance the dance, offer suggestions or solve disputes such as these.

I know some ST's will tilt toward the experienced jumpers story, but if they are worth their salt they will see the problem from an objective view. This is where any such encounters should be taken. Good bad or ugly, it is yours and the other jumpers life that is on the line.

Maybe the ST&A would review jumps dedicated to tracking after breakoff, or maybe group seperation, I wouldn't know, I wasn't there, but if you are doing 5 ways, you already know this stuff, yes?

Fact is, you had a dispute; Secondary as to who is right or wrong, is preventing your next encounter like this one, should there ever be one, from becoming a fatility.

Ever seen or heard two canopies collide? I have, I jumped high enough to call my landing a base jump!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was in the packing area dropping my gear <snip>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Right now, I am going to forget the friendly meeting you had in the packing area.

Be happy you were able to have it.

Ever seen two (or more) skydivers argue about something that occured, each knowing they were in the right? Nooooo, never :\)


.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 24, 2003, 11:05 PM
Post #13 of 72 (1839 views)
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Re: [skyjames] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

>. I am having a difficult time seeing how this other jumper happened to
> be in the same area you were in after your opening, with the claim "you
>cut him off", while you were fighting a canopy above your hard deck.

A breakoff where jumpers are all at least 100 feet from each other at opening time is no problem at all if they all have on-heading openings. It's more of a big deal if two jumpers have off-heading openings; they have only a few seconds to avoid each other at the speeds modern (i.e. small) canopies fly, even in brakes. It's an even bigger problem if one jumper cannot manuever due to a canopy problem.

>That had to be a really low opening you had, from what I know, cutting
> someone off is normally done on final, not directly after opening.

It is possible to cut someone off at 2000 feet, if you fly into the airspace they were planning to use. Collisions can happen as easily at 2000 feet as they can at 20.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Aug 24, 2003, 11:11 PM
Post #14 of 72 (1835 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyway, the closest thing I've experienced was at Perris. After a good spot, a two way exited before me, I let them fall to a 45 degree angle, then exited. The problem is, they decided to pull at 4K
I do freestyle and pull at 3K (if the spot is good).
If the problem gets too out of hand, get the DZO involved.

scott

Umm that's why the c45 degree thingy isnt a good way of judging separationWink


skyjames  (D 22308)

Aug 25, 2003, 12:04 AM
Post #15 of 72 (1819 views)
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Re: [billvon] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>. I am having a difficult time seeing how this other jumper happened to
> be in the same area you were in after your opening, with the claim "you
>cut him off", while you were fighting a canopy above your hard deck.

A breakoff where jumpers are all at least 100 feet from each other at opening time is no problem at all if they all have on-heading openings. It's more of a big deal if two jumpers have off-heading openings; they have only a few seconds to avoid each other at the speeds modern (i.e. small) canopies fly, even in brakes. It's an even bigger problem if one jumper cannot manuever due to a canopy problem.

>That had to be a really low opening you had, from what I know, cutting
> someone off is normally done on final, not directly after opening.

It is possible to cut someone off at 2000 feet, if you fly into the airspace they were planning to use. Collisions can happen as easily at 2000 feet as they can at 20.

Sure bill, I won't argue with your points. I was not trying to read between the lines of the original post. Most "you cut me off" complaints I have seen/heard about were during final, I am not one to say they can't happen at higher altitudes, or didn't occure on this jump.

This was a 5 way, you and I both know 100 feet is distance enough to avoid contact for heads up jumpers, but unless the break off was lower than I suspect, tracking correctly should have put more than 100ft between the bodies, still I have no idea if the person that was complaining was on the same 5 way or not. Point taken, though the poster concerned themself more with protocol than the more pressing issue at hand.

Perhaps the poster can clarify this position

good to read you again

stuDent
.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
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Aug 25, 2003, 1:37 AM
Post #16 of 72 (1801 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

When people are adrenalised- some will react that way. You did the right thing. De-escalate, then rationalise.

t


sunshine  (D License)

Aug 25, 2003, 5:08 AM
Post #17 of 72 (1766 views)
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Re: [skyjames] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but you say you *think* your right brake came unstowed.
Pardon me ... you think the brake came unstowed?

Yes, I *think* it came unstowed. Perhaps i forgot to stow it in the first place. It's unlikely that i forgot to stow it, but who really knows for sure.

Quote:
I know some ST's will tilt toward the experienced jumpers story

I am the experienced jumper in this case.

Quote:
Ever seen or heard two canopies collide?

Yup. I've lost 2 freinds to canopy collisions.

Anyhoo, the point of the post wasn't about the incident that happened. It was about how to handle it once on the ground.


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 25, 2003, 7:31 AM
Post #18 of 72 (1700 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

FAA regulations for aircraft right-of-way give absolute priority to aircraft in distress.

By the same token, maybe the BSRs should give absolute right-of-way to jumpers dealing with malfunctions.


rgoper  (C 32349)

Aug 25, 2003, 8:24 AM
Post #19 of 72 (1662 views)
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Re: [kallend] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
By the same token, maybe the BSRs should give absolute right-of-way to jumpers dealing with malfunctions.

John:

this should be a "common sense" courtesy of other canopy pilots surronding a canopy pilot in disstress. i once had an incident when a skydiver below me (i was under canopy at 1000' AGL) went into self induced line twists, it looked unrecoverable to me, i immediately changed my landing approach and took an intentional downwind landing to give him all of the space he needed to deal with his perilous situation. thankfully, he got out of his twists, i made this observation myself before taking the downwind landing, but was already too low to make a correction to be facing into the wind, in addition i had made a decision and didn't have the altitude or time to change it. in the end, i got chewed out by a rw jumper i landed about 30' away from while he was agthering up his canopy, it really heated me up to be confronted like this, so i just "explained" to the other sky diver what the situation was and he never said another word about it. i didn't enjoy the downwind landing, but the other sky diver landed safely, shaken, but safe. later him and i disscussed what had happened, and he was pleased that i took evasive action to give him "airspace" to deal with his situation. (i could have simply flown underneath him and stole his airspace) although i took an ass eating for my downwinder, i'd do it again for a canopy pilot in disstress beneath me.


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 25, 2003, 8:26 AM
Post #20 of 72 (1658 views)
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Re: [rgoper] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
By the same token, maybe the BSRs should give absolute right-of-way to jumpers dealing with malfunctions.

John:

this should be a "common sense" courtesy of other canopy pilots surronding a canopy pilot in disstress..

I recall hearing that common sense isn't so common.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Aug 25, 2003, 8:31 AM
Post #21 of 72 (1658 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Best thing to do is act more adult than him and tell him aloud you will continue the discussion in a reserved manner in private (this way everyone sees you attempting to deal with the hothead in a level headed fashion).

Wink


rgoper  (C 32349)

Aug 25, 2003, 8:37 AM
Post #22 of 72 (1653 views)
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Re: [kallend] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I recall hearing that common sense isn't so common.

you got me by the short hairs on that one John! Frown


(This post was edited by rgoper on Aug 25, 2003, 11:48 AM)


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Aug 25, 2003, 9:28 AM
Post #23 of 72 (1626 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Did you talk to him after a while? How did he act then?

Anyway, the closest thing I've experienced was at Perris. After a good spot, a two way exited before me, I let them fall to a 45 degree angle, then exited. The problem is, they decided to pull at 4K
I do freestyle and pull at 3K (if the spot is good).

scott

Scott....meet BillVon......Bill.....meet Scott. Please go have a talk about the 45 degree rule for seperation and why it DOES NOT WORK!


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Aug 25, 2003, 9:39 AM
Post #24 of 72 (1619 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

>I was a little defensive at the time because I was new up there and I wasn't going to tolerate any SKYGOD bullshit!

And this is the oppisite attitude that you should have in heated situations. Its best just to sit down, breathe a little bit and figure things out. Make sure you remember detail by detail of what happened then calmly approach the other jumper. The canopy ride is not enough time for most situtaions to cool off. Dealing with people that have more experience then you usually is better to sit and learn from your mistakes together rather then not listening and actually respecting "SKYGODS"...


andy2

Aug 25, 2003, 10:30 AM
Post #25 of 72 (1590 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Discussing "issues" with fellow jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

This type of thing has never happened to me, but I think if it did I would calmly (try to at least) walk back to the packing area and at least set down my gear, stow brakes, etc etc before approaching trying to resolve the problem. Theres no reason to get mad, whats done is done, working from a docile standpoint you can prevent the problem from RECURRING.


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