Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
CReW--Downplanes

 


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 16, 2001, 12:36 AM
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CReW--Downplanes Can't Post

A buddy (flyingferret) and I were having a discussion last night on how to actually hold the two canopy pilots together during a downplane last night. The two lines of thought were that one of them graps the other with his/her legs and the other was that both parties hold one leg of the other (which is between both of the other party's legs) with one of his hands. Although we have never actually docked any CReW, we were just having a discussion and curious as to what actually happened.

Also, what is the prefered method of getting together for a downplane? Forming a stack and moving down someone's lines or throwing a guide to the other jumper and using that to pull each other together?

Any answers would be good, we have a small bet (beer) riding on this. Smile



AggieDave '02
-------------
Blue Skies and Gig'em Ags!
BTHO t.u.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 16, 2001, 7:56 AM
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

Geeh!
It has been a few years since I have been in a downplane.
Let's see if I still remember how.
You start by docking your canopy on your buddy's butt.
You apply more brakes while he slides down your lines.
Then you pull him farther down until he is level with you.
Then you grab his ankle.
He turns his canopy away from yours until you are both screaming towards the ground and screaming your fool heads off.

Just a caution, many CReW dogs have experimented with fancy leg locks and a few have gotten hurt when they could not release the fancy leg locks.
Stick with grabbing your buddy's ankle. The worst thing that can happen is losing a shoe!



Premier skymonkeyone  (D 12501)

Dec 16, 2001, 8:18 AM
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the proven Chuck Blue method:

Dock on your buddy's ass/back/lines; anywhere he can get to a biplane easiest. Top man flies the stack over the top of the DZ (downplanes are best when they fly straight down from overhead the landing area). Top man unhooks his feet from beneath the slider/riser cross-connectors (if used), then works himself down the lines a tad until the bottom man can grab the legstraps of the top guy. Top guy's feet are apart and he releases his toggles and looks down. Bottom man swings up his left foot which is grabbed by the top guy and pulled up to his belly level. Bottom guy throws up his right leg under and to the left of his left leg, crossing them. Top guy grabs that leg with the other and holds both very tightly to his belly or chest. The higher the grip, the more secure. Bottom man grabs his toggles, pulls the right one smartly until he is facing directly at the ground. As you rotate over, the top man will feel your legs "untwist" in his hands, then will also grag you with his legs. He is in total control of the connection and you are in control of steering. If your parachutes are similar type/wingload, then you will go straight down, if not, then you will fly in the direction of the larger wing. Either way, the man with the toggles steers and the guy with the legs holds you together. I have done downplanes with many, many mixed types of parachutes and it's all good. A comon-sense rule of thumb, though, is that the parachute with shorter lines is to the bottom so that when you collapse that biplane into the legstrap-grip transition, they won't hit each other and will continue to fly. This is the very simplest method I ever found and is very safe. Straps and figure four leg-locks will get you hurt. At the end of the downplane, when the holder gets tired or either of you get scared, then the holder simply lets go and your parachutes fly in opposite directions.

Break-off height for downplanes at Raeford was/is 500 feet, but I got ran off the DZ several times for breaking that rule many years ago. I don't get the opportunity to do much CRW anymore, but I sure do love it. "Back in the day" we used to ALL (well, not all, but certainly a great majority of us) do CRW at the end of our skydives; at least a two-stack. Microlines and fast elipticals make it a much more daunting proposition, but "stilleto crw" as we used to call it is making a bit of a comeback. So long as you are wearing a hook knife, wearing gloves, and have your legs covered with a jumpsuit or pants, then it's all good.

Chuck

My webpage HERE


SkydiveMonkey  (B 102345)

Dec 16, 2001, 8:33 AM
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen CReW done on a couple of Vengeance 120's before - quite interesting to watch (although for obvious reasons it didn't last too long)

I skydive, therefore I am Smile


brits17  (D 24752)

Dec 16, 2001, 11:05 AM
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

chuck's got it on the money...

just talk to catfish, dave... we do em every weekend of course :) haha, and my 1st downplane breakoff? 70 feet, WOOHOO! (and that was russell under his sabre150 and me under my safire109) eeeep! c YA!

Blue Skies,
Brittany S!
D-24752


prost  (D 24959)

Dec 16, 2001, 4:32 PM
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a even more fun with a couple of FX's. But I wouldn't really know, I have never done crew on a canopy larger than 100 square feet.

William



brits17  (D 24752)

Dec 16, 2001, 9:37 PM
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

haha, ya, done a 2-stack with an FX79 and VX60... well, we came pretty close to nailing it anyway... that was fun. c ya!

Blue Skies,
Brittany S!
D-24752


3fLiEr

Dec 17, 2001, 6:12 AM
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

and my 1st downplane breakoff? 70 feet, WOOHOO

Let me get this right......... you did a downplane (which on CReW canopies eg 190/170 sq ft can get to speeds near 100mph so on a Sabre 150 and Safire 109 well must get some massive speed up) you broke whilst face to earth and 70ft.......... so you are telling me your canopy planed out at those speeds within that 70ft.................... mmmmmmm................. excuse me if that sounds a little unbelievable.............. anyone care to explain why this would sound plausable????....... i did a down plane on fury 220's and the height lost planing out surprised me (we broke at 300 or 400 ft - and it did not leave much height after that........)........ but hey I might be wrong.............

bsbd



"In a world where we are slaves to gravity I am pleased to be a freedom fighter"


(This post was edited by 3fLiEr on Dec 17, 2001, 6:15 AM)


brits17  (D 24752)

Dec 17, 2001, 12:47 PM
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

its cool... yes surprisingly it did plane out very quickly. but on my 2nd, we didnt burn it down quite as low... heh. we're a pretty big crw dz, and i'm a total newbie at crw, so i pretty much relied on what the crew dogs told me. but if you dont believe it, come out and watch :) oh, got video on it too somewhere... cool stuff. c ya!

Blue Skies,
Brittany S!
D-24752


mnischalke  (D 26290)

Dec 17, 2001, 2:31 PM
Post #10 of 18 (2313 views)
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

It's interesting there isn't a CReW forum here.

Sangrio?!?!?!?!



Kris  (D 26033)

Dec 17, 2001, 3:24 PM
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...Safire 109 well must get some massive speed up...
Hehe. Keep in mind that Brittany under a 109 is barely a 1:1 wing-loading...

Kris




crewpilot

Dec 17, 2001, 6:11 PM
Post #12 of 18 (2294 views)
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

The speed in a d/p is around 75 mph. The lift generated at that speed causes the canopy to plane out with minimal loss of altitude. I have done downplanes with two fury's before and they can go alot lower than a sabre so if you broke and landed immediatly you were ALOT lower than 300 ft.

and yes, Brits D/P was broke at about 70 ft. give or take a foot.



crewpilot

Dec 17, 2001, 6:13 PM
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

p.s. wing loading has no affect on the vertical speed of a downplane. It is all drag.



cloud9  (D 27635)

Dec 17, 2001, 11:39 PM
Post #14 of 18 (2276 views)
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
p.s. wing loading has no affect on the vertical speed of a downplane. It is all drag
Ok lets play this one out for just a moment. 200 lb guy under a Triathlon 210 Vs a 200 lb guy under a stiletto 120 which creates less drag?
Wing loading and drag go hand in hand eh!



AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 18, 2001, 2:42 AM
Post #15 of 18 (2269 views)
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

Sup Russel?

AggieDave '02
-------------
Blue Skies and Gig'em Ags!
BTHO t.u.


hookit  (D 24838)

Dec 18, 2001, 7:58 AM
Post #16 of 18 (2252 views)
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

---Wing loading and drag go hand in hand eh!---

If you're referring to a single jumper under different canopies then certainly there will be an inversely proportional relationship between wing loading and drag. However, if you compare two different jumpers of greatly varied weights it could easily be the case that the lighter jumper could be at a lesser wing loading AND still have less drag because they're on a smaller canopy than the heavier jumper. Example: I load my Vengeance 120 at just over 1.5 while, as Kris pointed out, Brit was loading her 109 at just over 1.1. I'm at a higher wing loading but Brit has less drag due to the smaller size of the canopy.

However, if we hadn't had low clouds and rain here in Houston all last weekend I would have been flying a Samurai 105 (insert very large smile here!!!) on which I would have had less drag than Brit did on her 109. But no, we couldn't have nice weather for a weekend now, could we? Apparently nice weather is reserved for Mondays and Tuesdays in Houston. Okay, sorry. I'll stop whining....for now.

-Trey





crewpilot

Dec 18, 2001, 9:10 AM
Post #17 of 18 (2239 views)
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, Wing loading and drag have nothing to do with each other in a downplane. Yes, a 200 lb guy under 120 will go faster than 200 lb. guy on a 220. But in a downplane, wing loading DOES NOT affect the speed. A 200 lb. guy on a 120 will have the same speed in downplane as a 100 lb. guy on 120. The smaller the canopy, the faster it goes. Regardless of wing loading. I have a 1.1:1 loading on my canopy. If i do a downplane with anyone with a smaller canopy, Their canopy out flies my in the downplane. Doesn't matter if their wing loading is more or less than mine. Only that they have a smaller canopy.



stacy  (D License)

Dec 22, 2001, 8:26 PM
Post #18 of 18 (2184 views)
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Re: CReW--Downplanes [In reply to] Can't Post

The downplanes I have done were slightly different in set up. did a normal 2 stack, slide down A lines, etc... the top canopy then basically climbed down the other person's risers, taking a side by side harness grip. legs are swung around each others' waists and both canopies give a little toggle input. wasn't that hard to hang on to, lots of fun. =c)

Stacy
http://users.snip.net/~stacy



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