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One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab.

 

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sducoach  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 5:59 PM
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One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. Can't Post

FrownOkay Hook, bring it on.
One of our local jumpers with aprox. 200+ jumps, just returned from Rantoul. He has been one of those who you list as not if, but when. Seems he attended a swoop seminar at Rantoul given by a big name team swooper and was told "you've got it going, just work on it and start using those rear risers". So he did, missed, and is now in the hospital after breaking a femur, pelvis, dislocating the hip, and bruising a bunch of internals.

The DZO and I were out of town at an event and did not see it however, when I visited with him in the hospital the truth of what we've been telling him, the reality of a life time of limping at best seems to have been his wake up call. We can only hope.

We can educate, train, or ground them but when you are "bullet proof" it just dosen't matter until the Doctor walks in.

Please be safe.

Blues,

J.E.


Jimbo  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 6:14 PM
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Re: [sducoach] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
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One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab.

Not true. And I resent that you're suggesting that it was the swoop seminar that put this kid in the hosipital. The reality is that, like any other accident, it was a series of probably avoidable conditions that ALL contributed to his current condition.

I'm taking the following from your post in Incidents.

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200+ jumps under a Stiletto 135 loaded around 1.5.

Sort of frightening in itself, especially when paired with this one from your post in the S&T forum.

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He has been one of those who you list as not if, but when.

Then there's this:

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Please be careful in what you say to others with less experience and our new brothers and sisters.

Bullshit. Words are nice, but actions are better. If you were that concerned about this jumper why didn't you ground him? Why didn't you do something to change the situation? Don't go and blame the swoop seminar, or the instructor for that matter, for your jumpers poor judgement or his recent accident.

I wish your jumper a complete and speedy recovery.

-
Jim


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Aug 18, 2003, 6:16 PM
Post #3 of 97 (2561 views)
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Re: [sducoach] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We can educate, train, or ground them but when you are "bullet proof" it just dosen't matter until the Doctor walks in.
Or the coroner. Some people really should take up a different sport. They are generally into combat skydiving and have the proverbial deer in the head light look. Unsure
I have taken the time to explain things in detail, send someone to the "alternate landing area" and made sure that the TS&A had words with these folk. Don't be afraid to take a pro-active stance. the life you save....may just be your own!


(This post was edited by bbarnhouse on Aug 18, 2003, 6:20 PM)


sducoach  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 6:42 PM
Post #4 of 97 (2528 views)
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Re: [Jimbo] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileDude,
Take a pill. It was not the swoop seminar that put him in the hospital, it was him!!

I'll only copy one part of your post and wait for your response. Seems you've got a quick temper however, I'll apologize if you think I was attacking the seminar, what I'm talking about is stupidity. Problem is like many, when you know it all and you're bullet proof, you just don't listen when you're warned. Until you are laying flat on your back.
So tell me, why not be careful in what you say to a lesser experienced jumper?
Quote:
Quote:
I'm taking the following from your post in Incidents.


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200+ jumps under a Stiletto 135 loaded around 1.5.

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Sort of frightening in itself, especially when paired with this one from your post in the S&T forum.


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He has been one of those who you list as not if, but when.

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Then there's this:


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Please be careful in what you say to others with less experience and our new brothers and sisters.

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Bullshit. Words are nice, but actions are better. If you were that concerned about this jumper why didn't you ground him? Why didn't you do something to change the situation? Don't go and blame the swoop seminar, or the instructor for that matter, for your jumpers poor judgement or his recent accident.

I wish your jumper a complete and speedy recovery.

-
Jim

Hey Jim, tell me how to ground him. Did you read the part about being out of town? Do I as an S&TA have the authority to ground him? Does the DZO? There you go.

The point my friend is that when an experienced skydiver talks, inexperienced ones listen. So tell me again, why not be careful what you say?

After several warnings at home, a little shot in the old pride bucket by a hero and, there you go.If you think words don't have an impact or mean something specific to someone else, go re-read your post. The only thing I resent is your language.

Blues to you brother,

J.E.


turnlow  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 6:52 PM
Post #5 of 97 (2510 views)
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Re: [sducoach] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

Was this the dz.com regular who posted about buying a 135 recently - and many of us told him not to?

Just wondering...

__________________________________________________


mikkey  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 6:59 PM
Post #6 of 97 (2500 views)
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Re: [sducoach] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the key is:

"200+ jumps under a Stiletto 135 loaded around 1.5"

That is IMO just too much with his experience, swoop seminar or no swoop seminar.

Also, I assume that swoop seminars are different from a canopy control class. I went on a canopy control class down here in OZ and we did no Swoop stuff what so ever. All landings were filmed and reviewed, but the class was about canopy "input" and I learned a lot.
Like one of the instructor told us: Do NOT start swooping and carving before you have learned all there is about you canopy up at altitude using all available input methods - and be prepared to spend hundreds of jumps learning it.

I think that BEFORE somebody attends swooping seminars at 200 jumps, they should first learn canopy control skills (at altitude). I believe going on a swoop seminar with little experience and skill (and high WL) and then come back and "try what I learned" is actually dangerous.

Just my 2 cents.


Jimbo  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 7:09 PM
Post #7 of 97 (2487 views)
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Re: [sducoach] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
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Hey Jim, tell me how to ground him.

"Dude, you're a danger to yourself and others, you're grounded at this dropzone." You are the S&TA, right?

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Did you read the part about being out of town?

Uh huh. I also read the part about 200-ish jumps on a Stiletto 135 @ 1.5. I also read the part about "not if, but when". Did that all happen while you were out of town?

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Do I as an S&TA have the authority to ground him?

I hope so. If not I hope that you, as the S&TA, have a direct line to the DZO who certainly can ground him.

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Does the DZO?

I certainly hope so!

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The point my friend is that when an experienced skydiver talks, inexperienced ones listen. So tell me again, why not be careful what you say?

I don't disagree that younger skydivers listen when experienced skydivers talk, a lot more of us would be dead if this wasn't true. But I don't think that keeping information from budding skydivers is the key either. If this guy has watched ANY of the decent swoopers land recently then he's seen them use rear risers; he probably would have tried it himself, without any instruction, sooner or later. I have to believe that he's at least a little bit ahead of the curve after having had at least some professional instruction or comment. Keeping information from skydivers will only ensure that we hurt more skydivers.

-
Jim


(This post was edited by Jimbo on Aug 18, 2003, 7:18 PM)


sducoach  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 7:18 PM
Post #8 of 97 (2473 views)
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Re: [turnlow] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

No it was not. This is a kid, 25 or so, and has been a tough time. Made some bad decesions in his personal life and payed for it now he's paying for it again. Good hearted kid with a good hard head.

Blues,

J.E.


sducoach  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 7:37 PM
Post #9 of 97 (2460 views)
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Re: [Jimbo] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

Blush
What do I believe Jim, this or your PM?

Dude you show me where an S&TA has the authority to "ground" anyone! Post it here. Big talk, no bullets.

The DZO was also out of town. Read this one more time. The DZO was also out of town. Did I have a direct line to him? Yes, he was sitting right next to me when the call came in.

Your post is amazing. Who said keep anything away from anyone? Quote that part will you? How about be careful in what you say.

If you knew this kid I'd think you had something to say but again, words mean something so keep on posting this type of stuff. Here we sit with a kid in the hospital hurt but a whole lot "smarter" now, and I'm arguing with you.

Guess I'm the stupid one........................Tongue

Blues,

J.E.


peek  (D 8884)

Aug 18, 2003, 7:56 PM
Post #10 of 97 (2437 views)
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Re: [sducoach] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

Jim,

The USPA appointment of S&TA does not give one the right to "ground" a jumper. The DZO (or club President if a club) can certainly do this, but if they are out of town ....

The S&TA is an advisor, chosen for their experience and knowledge, of which J.E. has plenty, and their DZO has the same, but it doesn't mean the lesser experienced jumpers are going to take that advice from either.

Yes, the title "one swoop seminar = 6-12 months rehab" is a bit rhetorical, but I bet J.E. created it out of frustration :)

There are people who are so eager to try something that they have heard about that they don't get any further infomation from anyone else, and just go for it.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 7:58 PM
Post #11 of 97 (2433 views)
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Re: [sducoach] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

There is absolutely nothing we can do. We suggested wing loading restrictions that would have restricted almost no one, as a means of mandatory education. The outcries against the idea still ring in my ears. This is the price of that freedom.

The S & TA is almost powerless. I did a short stint as an S & TA. I figured I could help people. People don't want to be helped. Saturday afternoon, I am cranking out tandems and AFF and someone asks if they can take there "D" license. I tell'em sure, come see me right after sun set and I'll gt you hooked up. Well they go around telling everyone how much of a jerk I am for blowing them off and not dropping what I'm doing to give their test, right now. Someone pulls low, I gotta go talk to them. Someone cuts off someone else under canopy, I gotta go talk to them. I'm the bad guy. Then someone pulls at a grand. I tell them their grounded for a week. The DZO hears this and tells them to get on the next load. The winds are blowing too hard for tandems even and the DZO tells the Instructors, "Go or your fired". There is nothing an S & TA can do. I turned down the job of S & TA recently for those reasons. You can't win, but you sure can lose. The S & TA gets the short end of the stick and the pay sucks ($0.00/year).

Someone wants to jump an elliptical at a high wing loading with low jumps, they will. There is nothing to stop them. That is the way skydivers want it. I just hope they understand the price.

Derek


skymonkey  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 8:03 PM
Post #12 of 97 (2425 views)
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Re: [sducoach] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

sducoach,

First of all let me thank you for the post, we are definitely moving in the right direction on getting the words out to the rest of the skydiving comunity. What I see here in the last few posts definitely isn't making progress. Oviously we have a problem in todays skydiving of relatively inexp. jumpers biting more than they can chew as regards to the canopies they fly. Oviously he wasn't ready for that canopy. We can for the most part agree on that.. What should be discussed is identifying the problem and then finding the best possible solution for it. For example setting wingloading maximum rules for your particular DZ, based on jump numbers and individual evaluation by the DZO. Oviously he ultimately decides if someone can jump at his airport and with what equipment. I'm sure that you guys have had extensive talks with this individual in the past, Was there any measures taken to address this problem that ended in injury? It doesn't matter now, its water under the bridge. What's important is that action is taken so that it doesn't happen again under the same circumstances. This is an inherently dangerous sport and peole get hurt. we're going to have more guys hook it, in even experienced guys with thousands of jumps, that's just the way it is. It's human nature to take chances, it's our job as fellow skydivers and friends to make sure those that do are prepared in the best possible way.. What else can you do? Mentorship, and a couple of rules might do the trick.. My 2 cents.

On request I can post wingloading rules that my DZ uses..


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 8:13 PM
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Re: [skymonkey] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What should be discussed is identifying the problem and then finding the best possible solution for it. For example setting wingloading maximum rules for your particular DZ, based on jump numbers and individual evaluation by the DZO.

Most DZO's wont do this because they will lose business. The ones that do probably don't care if they lose fun jumpers, all they want is students anyway.

Skydivers won't support wing loading restrictions, the 'Wingloading BSR' threads proved that.

Derek


sducoach  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 8:19 PM
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Re: [peek] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gary & Skymonkey,

Thanks to both of you. Yes Gary frustration is one of the reasons for the title. Frustrated that after slowing this kid down, talking with the DZO, talking about experience, canopy pilot skills, wing loading, perceptions, and attitude. Kid comes back from Rantoul a swoop king and here we are.
Wing loading limitations, I'm all for it. Just let me know how the USPA or an S&TA can enforce it. It's got to come from the DZO's.

Blues,

J.E.


skymonkey  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 8:27 PM
Post #15 of 97 (2398 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

How will they loose business?, will the skydivers just up and quit jumping?, or drive the possible longer distance to another dropzone? Well Like I said befor we need to look for solutions to these problems, Maybe the DZ can get together and agree on some issues to keep these customers alive or in jumping shape so they don't loose the business. Maybe alot of them can get the USPA involved. I know it's not what anyone wants to hear, I normally don't post, but I really like this sport alot and it really hurts me when people get hurt needlessly. Most jumpers where I jump either can jump there with these, I think fair couple of rules or drive 2 or 3 hours to another DZ. You have to have a few rules to keep the madness at bay.. Like I said before mentorship and a couple of rules never killed anyone. It's not that we want more rules it's that we want to keep more skydivers alive..

At my DZ we have 500 jump requirement for 1.5 or above wingloading.. Sounds fair to me..


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 8:39 PM
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Re: [skymonkey] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

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How will they loose business?,

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will the skydivers just up and quit jumping?,

Probably not

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or drive the possible longer distance to another dropzone?

Exactly.

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Well Like I said befor we need to look for solutions to these problems, Maybe the DZ can get together and agree on some issues to keep these customers alive or in jumping shape so they don't loose the business. Maybe alot of them can get the USPA involved.

Hasn't happened yet and there doesn't seem to be any indication that it will happen anytime soon. They lose a few jumpers a year to injuries and they come back eventually, usually. They implement WL restrictions and the DZ down the road doesn't, a whole bunch move down the road.

As for USPA, they won't do anything unless DZO's tell them to.

Quote:
I know it's not what anyone wants to hear, I normally don't post, but I really like this sport alot and it really hurts me when people get hurt needlessly.

The problem is getting worse with no solution in sight. The perceived reduction in freedom, possibly leading to further reductions in freedom, perception that there isn't a problem, and everyone believing they are the exception prevents any solution from being implemented. Look at the poll on the homepage about a Wing loading BSR.

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Most jumpers where I jump either can jump there with these, I think fair couple of rules or drive 2 or 3 hours to another DZ. You have to have a few rules to keep the madness at bay.. Like I said before mentorship and a couple of rules never killed anyone. It's not that we want more rules it's that we want to keep more skydivers alive..

Sounds so simple, doesn't it?

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At my DZ we have 500 jump requirement for 1.5 or above wingloading.. Sounds fair to me..

Read the Wingloading BSR threads. We have been down this road before. The opposition to the 500/1.5 restriction was/is huge. They don't want it and will fight against it.

Derek


masher  (D 3806)

Aug 18, 2003, 8:43 PM
Post #17 of 97 (2383 views)
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One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry for the digression...


I'm guessing that the S&TA is like our DZSO (DZ Saftey Officer)

From our OpRegs:
In addition to the powers granted by his organisation to discipline its members, a DZSO may suspend from any or all parachuting activities any parachutist contravening these regulations or performing parachuting activities in a manner dangerous to themselves or others for the period of the time necessary for his report of the infringement to reach the ASO.


Isn't it pointless to have S&TAs if they can't do anything?

I found the S&TA manual on the USPA website. It seems that all they can do is report the jumper to the regional director.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 8:46 PM
Post #18 of 97 (2377 views)
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Re: [masher] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

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Isn't it pointless to have S&TAs if they can't do anything?

Yes.

They are there for appearances. "See Mr. FAA, we are self-regulating, no need for you to regulate skydiving"

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I found the S&TA manual on the USPA website. It seems that all they can do is report the jumper to the regional director.

Right. Now look up what a RD can do a jumper. Can they ground them? Nope. The DZO can say, hop on the airplane and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Derek


skymonkey  (D License)

Aug 18, 2003, 9:03 PM
Post #19 of 97 (2374 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

I see your point.. What we have here is a mindset issue. That can be changed..But it takes more than just two guys on coffe in the middle of the night typing away at a keyboard, I'm familiar with the polls,.. I guess that whole USPA revamping of the course was a big smoke screen to try to solve a problem that can't be solved. I think it is the responsibility of every DZO to make sure continuing education for our skydivers is there after they have been released from the clutches of the USPA rules prior to getting their licenses, correct me if I am wrong. We need to get it into their heads while they are still fresh and fairly inexperienced.. I personally don't see anything wrong with a 1.5 wingloading limit for 500 or less jumps. If it's about that swooping issue and turf surfing. I believe and seen experienced pilots that can get pretty darn impressive performance from a canopy loaded under 1.3.. probably more speed distance and control than less exp pilot in higher wingloadings. It's not the size it's how you use it. One thing I have noticed ove the years is that many of those pilots with thousands jumps over the years that compete in swoop contests didn't start flying WL of more than 1.5 till well over 1000 jumps.. People just aren't taking their canopies that they have now and really getting what they need before downsizing. I always tell people that ask me questions to read the profiles in parachutist. I always reference J.C. Coclasure and the ammount of jumps he did on pretty lightly WL's before he stepped into the hiperf world. Then again smaller canopies weren't available at the time and if they were they were pretty much regulated by manufacturers.


masher  (D 3806)

Aug 18, 2003, 9:17 PM
Post #20 of 97 (2360 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

Had a look in the Governance manual. They (RD and S&TA) can only pull the ratings of instructors.


Ahh, America. The Land of the Free..... Unsure


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 18, 2003, 9:35 PM
Post #21 of 97 (2354 views)
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Re: [sducoach] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

>Dude you show me where an S&TA has the authority to "ground" anyone!
>Post it here. Big talk, no bullets.

I grounded three people while I was S+TA at Brown. Most S+TA's have this power; DZO's give it to them. If a DZO doesn't trust an S+TA enough to enforce his groundings something is awry.


rmsmith

Aug 18, 2003, 10:14 PM
Post #22 of 97 (2339 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someone wants to jump an elliptical at a high wing loading with low jumps, they will. There is nothing to stop them. That is the way skydivers want it. I just hope they understand the price.
Eventually, the general public will become tired of these medical expenses as many of these younger swoopers don't have medical insurance. Somebody will either tax the sport or regulate it, sort of like the gun industry, because it's always about money!


skymedic  (C 33561)

Aug 18, 2003, 11:24 PM
Post #23 of 97 (2321 views)
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Re: [billvon] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If a DZO doesn't trust an S+TA enough to enforce his groundings something is awry.

It's called greed...


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 19, 2003, 1:01 AM
Post #24 of 97 (2304 views)
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Re: [billvon] One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Dude you show me where an S&TA has the authority to "ground" anyone!
>Post it here. Big talk, no bullets.

I grounded three people while I was S+TA at Brown. Most S+TA's have this power; DZO's give it to them. If a DZO doesn't trust an S+TA enough to enforce his groundings something is awry.[/reply
Many years ago, I was S&TA at Perris. I grounded 2 jumpers for 30 days and did a part 75 on a third. He was banned from jumping for 6 months. Both Perrris and Elsinore complied with the actions.
Sparky


rgoper  (C 32349)

Aug 19, 2003, 4:09 AM
Post #25 of 97 (2272 views)
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One swoop seminar equals six to twelve months rehab. [In reply to] Can't Post

we all sky dive because of the thrill of freefall, it's the landings that are getting us. unlike years ago prior to gear evolution when sky divers were getting killed under a bad canopy, or gear that did not operate correctly.

as long as there are BIG egos, (and there always will be) there will be incidents, accidents, deaths and fatalities. i've come to just accept the "big balls" attitudes of certain sky divers. only when someone has lived long enough to realize their own mortality will the incident level start to decline. it's all about "who's who, and who is the fastest, baddest and most bullet proof" well it's hurting us. back when i went through tandem progression/afp program, i became aquainted with another student and we became really good friends, he was 27, i was 40. this particular young man, even as much as i tried to instill safety to him, he was reckless. one day at the end of our sky diving activities we became engadged in a conversation that led up to me chiding him for pulling at around 800' AGL on a two way head down dive we did. we planned the dive, and i'm the only one that dived the plan, he fell past me while i was under open canopy SSS at 1900 AGL, i thought...."NO" sob if he didn't pull, if he would have had a mal, end game. i asked this young man, "what would have happened if your AAD would have fired?" he responded by replying with "what AAD?" he told me, "your just an old man!" i responded by replying "yeah, your right, but i fear i'll out live you" (i regret ever saying this now, because it haunts me) this particular young man was killed not long after this incident, low ground turn, landing in double fronts. i was very good friends with this young man, and his wife was a friend of my wife, don't be this young man. i lost a friend, his wife lost a husband, and for what????

"every man has got to realize his limitations" untill common sense is properly utilized, i fear the worst. this incident was one, and only one person's fault...end of story.


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