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horseshoe

 


eml  (C License)

Dec 7, 2001, 1:24 PM
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horseshoe Can't Post

I've always been a little unclear about procedure for a horseshoe. I realize the boc will be in a very awkward position crunched up against the reserve. Can you realistically find the hackey, bridle, or something to get it cleared. If all attempts to do this fail do you cut away and hope for the best?



rgoper  (C 32349)

Dec 7, 2001, 1:52 PM
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

the horseshoe is probably one of the most difficult mals to handle. try to get the pilot chute out, and finish deployment. but as always, try once, try twice, then initiate emergency procedures. whether to cut away a horse shoe before deploying reserve, i would, sometimes if you deploy the reserve with a horshoe, the reserve will get entangled, and not deploy correctly. but what about cutting away with a horse shoe, and the pilot chute stays in the boc? that would be a bitch! so i say throw the pilot chute, and that should be the end of your problem. but as always, do your research, there's plenty of links around from people who have had this same mal, with very different outcomes in each case. personally check your closing loop after each dive, i change mine every 25 jumps, whether i need to or not. the best defense, is a good offense.

Richard

"Gravity Is My Friend"





GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

Dec 7, 2001, 2:48 PM
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen a few people use a way of packing the pilot chute so only a relatively (felt like 2 or 3 pounds) small amount of force is required to pull the entire bridle (followed by the PC) clear of the pouch (yet the PC was in the pouch quite snug - don't ask me how that is possible - it just was *heh* - it took the typical force on the handle to extract the chute, but if you started pulling bridle, the whole thing would start coming out followed at the end by the PC).

If you have a zero bridle exposure rig, there might be a packer who might be able to demostrate a method to pack the pilot chute to help in this situation - it might not prevent a horseshoe - but every little bit helps?

Thanks for bringing up horseshoes, reminded me to ask how they did pack the PC :)

Just a thought.




Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 7, 2001, 2:57 PM
Post #4 of 12 (1372 views)
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

>I've always been a little unclear about procedure for a horseshoe. I realize the
> boc will be in a very awkward position crunched up against the reserve.

Keep in mind that a horseshoe is any mal where a part of the canopy other than the risers remains attached to you. It could be a PC around your foot, a line around your arm, or a PC handle stuck in a harness ring. If you try to find the PC in its pouch during such a horseshoe, it may not be there to begin with.

The general term referring to the kind of horseshoe where the canopy's out and the PC isn't is "out of sequence deployment." These can be minimized by good gear maintenance and careful bridle routing. If you do have one, and you pack your PC to come out of its pouch easily by pulling on the bridle, you may have nothing scarier than an early opening.

> Can you
> realistically find the hackey, bridle, or something to get it cleared. If all attempts
> to do this fail do you cut away and hope for the best?

Depends on the deployment system. Pullout is generally not a problem - if the container's open, you are probably going to have a PC deploying. (Of course, it may get stuck somewhere else.) ROL pouch is easy to find no matter what's going on. BOC is going to be tougher, since it will not be where you expect it to be.

In any case, I think the procedure I teach in the FJC - two tries to either deploy the PC or clear the entanglement, then cutaway and reserve - is the best general procedure. If it's on your arm or leg, holding that body part as far away as possible during reserve deployment can help the reserve open cleanly. If you have a knife, you probably have time for _one_ attempt to cut away the offending material, but keep in mind that at minimum deployment altitude (2000 feet) you have effectively seven seconds to identify the problem, get the knife out, decide where to cut, cut it, then drop the knife, cutaway and open your reserve. (You probably shouldn't pull any handles with a knife in your hands for obvious reasons.)

-bill von


lummy  (A 40776)

Dec 7, 2001, 6:34 PM
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

Rich,
I have no experience at all with this type of mal, but I did talk to our S&TA about this very type during my AFF. His advice was that since it was an out of sequence deployment, chances are more often than not that it would turn into a bag lock. I guess the point I'm hoping to make is I wouldn't think I'm outta the woods just cause I got the PC out.
That and also to realize that the PC will be somewhere in middle of your back(IF it's still in the pocket) since the bag is already out.



weid14  (D 20292)

Dec 7, 2001, 8:04 PM
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

if you're at cross keys or teh ranch -- ask to see if the horseshoe video is around. A jumper leaving on a bigger way (not huge, but not small), had her pin jostled and extracted. it's all on video, she's trying arch to the formation amd can't understand why whe is floaty, then she's pissed cause a video guy is docking on her, leading to her realization of the issue. He deployed her PC, and it did turn into a bag lock, which she cleared, but the canopy opened in a ball of crap. she chopped... it makes for interesting vid. TK's neck breaking swoop is on there too.



rgoper  (C 32349)

Dec 7, 2001, 8:20 PM
Post #7 of 12 (1332 views)
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

Lummy:

theoterically if the pilot chute is still in the pouch, thus causing the horse shoe. therefroe i would be inclined to throw it out, only twice, see what does/does not happen, then if i get a canopy, kewel, if not cut away release reserve. the danger of not trying to get the pilot chute out o the pouch is, when you cut your main away, entanglement could cause an unsurmountable problem. also a horse shoe, wouldn't be a horse shoe with the pilot chute out of the pouch. if your pilot chute is out, and your d-bag is not acting accordingly, that would be referred to a baglock, not horshoe. two entirely different mals.

Richard

"Gravity Is My Friend"





TheMarshMan1  (C 40097)

Dec 7, 2001, 8:43 PM
Post #8 of 12 (1325 views)
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

"...also a horse shoe, wouldn't be a horse shoe with the pilot chute out of the pouch..."

Correct me if I'm misreading what you're saying (I think I might be...), but thats not true. I think someone already said it, but a horseshoe is where something (the D-bag) is out, but something between there and the P/C is attached to your body/gear in some way. The pilot chute CAN be out of the pouch and you can still have a horseshoe (i.e. P/C or bridle wrapped around wrist/ankle).



(This post was edited by TheMarshMan1 on Dec 7, 2001, 8:46 PM)


lazerq3  (C -34113)

Dec 7, 2001, 9:19 PM
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

I cant speak from any experiance but if you watch the breakaway vidoe, they say to cutaway and hope for the best but they also said that if you cutaway there may not be sufficiant drag to release the three ring assem. But what ever you do ,, do something cause something is better than nothing!!

jjason




lummy  (A 40776)

Dec 7, 2001, 9:45 PM
Post #10 of 12 (1318 views)
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

Rich, you are correct in the fact that it is two different mals. The point I'm trying to make is that a when the PC is cleared in a horseshoe, there is a a very storng possibility of the canopy not getting out of the bag because of the out of seqwuence deployment.
Simpler terms, a cleared horsheshoe more than likely will lead to a bag lock.
Procedure is still the same to get the PC clear



rgoper  (C 32349)

Dec 8, 2001, 10:48 AM
Post #11 of 12 (1297 views)
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

definitely agreed upon. as i said initially the "horshoe" is probably one of the most hidious of total mals. it will always be "high speed" and need to be dealt with accordingly. i stand corrected on the pc could be wrapped around a body part, etc...but more times than not, it's still in the pouch, (if it was i'd make 2 attempts to clear it) because closing loops and bridle exposure are generally the root cause of this feared total malfunction. personally, i'd chop it (if i wasn't entangled with any of it) then deploy my reserve, to insure no entanglement of the reserve with the lines, d-bag etc...but then again, there's always a chance that there won't be enough drag to clear the lines and d-bag, but if there is, let it go away! then you'll be insured a "clean" canopy at reserve deployment. also remember, if your flying a RSL, deployment of the reserve will generally come before you can reach the "silver" so do you want your reserve going into this pile of crap above you? or will the container with the mal attached to it even let the reserve deploy correctly? all these things pass through my mind constantly, and i constantly rehearse for each one of them, any one who doesn't will more than likely regret it later (hopefully)

Richard

"Gravity Is My Friend"





mikefarmer  (D 19948)

Dec 12, 2001, 6:45 PM
Post #12 of 12 (1212 views)
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Re: horseshoe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the "horshoe" is probably one of the most hidious of total mals
Actually, the only "Total Mal" is a no-pull or container lock. Sometimes the PC in tow is referred to as a Total, but in reality a total is when NOTHING is out of the container. All other malfunctions are "Partial Mals." It's easy to confuse the terms "High Speed Mal" and "Total Mal," but they are very different. Sorry, guys, I'm feeling especially nitpicky tonight...

"It's better to be dead and cool than alive and uncool."-Marlboro Man



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