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Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet??

 

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Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Aug 8, 2003, 7:36 AM
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Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? Can't Post

I have read this before, but have never heard an explanation. I am very interested to hear why some people believe that wearing a frap hat is worse than going without any helmet at all?


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 8, 2003, 7:48 AM
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Re: [slotperfect] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

The point and purpose of a helmet is to spread the force of an impact out along a greater surface area and then asorb that impact to protect your head.

That's why bicycle helmets are trash after a crash, the styrofoam compresses and spreads the impact out over a greater surface area...once that foam has done its job once, its now worthless...

Anyways, a frap hat has ribs of foam, which does asorb an impact, BUT it isolated the trama to a single point on your skull. Thus magnifying the trama to a simgle point.

Frap hats are good for some things though. It'll hold your dytter. It will keep your hair in place. It can provide some abrasion protection (keep you from scraping skin/getting cuts/etc).

Helmet technology has progressed beyond the Frap Hat's design...


Strangely enough, about the best protection you can buy for your head (besides a certified motorcycle helmet of some sort) is a Pro-Tec helmet.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Aug 8, 2003, 7:56 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Anyways, a frap hat has ribs of foam, which does asorb an impact, BUT it isolated the trama to a single point on your skull. Thus magnifying the trama to a simgle point.

I've heard this before but I don't quite get it. Since most trauma will tend to be to a point (albeit blunt) then so it will be with a frap hat? Are you saying that there is something in the design of a frap hatthat actually directs and concentrates an impact from a larger area to a smaller one? Since the frap hat is not rigid and the ribs have compresable material in, how does that work?


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 8, 2003, 8:02 AM
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Re: [cpoxon] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, bare with me, since I'm by no means an expert, I'm just relaying what was told to me by an expert a year or so ago...

The point is that the frap hat isn't rigid, so it has no way to spread an impact out over a greater area, then asorb it. All that happens is that an impact (that might be 1.5"x1.5") is isolated to a single rib, then slightly asorbed. The asorbtion isn't a bad thing, the fact that the trama was isolated to a 1/2" rib and thus to a 1/2" wide spot on your head is.

Not to mention, what if you get hit between the ribs, what good did that do you?


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 8, 2003, 8:04 AM
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Re: [slotperfect] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure this is an urban legend circulated by those who want to justify their expensive but nice looking hard helmets.

_Am


Blahr

Aug 8, 2003, 8:10 AM
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Re: [AndyMan] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Which is totally valid as in my opinion, frap hats look silly CoolCool


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 8, 2003, 8:11 AM
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Re: [AndyMan] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

If that's the case, then why aren't leather helmets legel substitutes for helmets for motorcycles?

What about football(American...REAL footbal), they used to wear leather helmets, why do they wear hard-shell helmets now?

Its more then an urban legend.


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Aug 8, 2003, 8:11 AM)


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 8, 2003, 8:16 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're missing the point.

Are hard helmets better then soft helmets? Absolutely.

Is no helmet better then soft helmet? I can't imagine any logical explanation why this would be the case, hense my belief in it being an urban legend.

_Am (who always wears expensive, but purdy lookin hard helmets)


andy2

Aug 8, 2003, 9:07 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

what if you slam your head against the side of the airplane while exiting? A frap hat I'm sure would do more good than no helmet. But I think frap hats are silly, I mean if youre going to wear a helmet wear a helmet, not a peice of leather...


Clownburner  (B 26842)

Aug 8, 2003, 9:15 AM
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Re: [AndyMan] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly. Leather helmets were used for football and motorcycling until they were replaced by the newer hard-helmet technology.

Same thing with the frap hat - it's way better than nothing, but not as good as a rigid shell. A rigid shell with lots of foam (ala protec) is even better. The best helmets are sacrificial, like bike or auto racing helmets - very hard shell (kevlar, carbon fiber, etc) but with a styrofoam lining, then lined in soft foam. But they're big, expensive, and once they've stopped an impact they must be thrown away.

The "Frap hats are worse than nothing" is another Skydiving urban legend - we seem to have a lot of those, like the "previous group gets to 45 degrees" thing...

Oh, and they don't look as cool. I tested my helmets (both a mindwarp and a Z1) at Rantoul against oncoming skydivers, and I can tell you they work very well. (But they're expensive and purdy).Wink


(This post was edited by Clownburner on Aug 8, 2003, 9:17 AM)


lawrocket  (Student)

Aug 8, 2003, 9:53 AM
Post #11 of 82 (4880 views)
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Re: [Clownburner] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, what Aggie said was right on the money.

The old leather helmets in the NFL directed the force over the entire head. Leather motorcyce and bomber helmets, too. The frap hats, with their strips of leather, direct the force to a narrow slice of the head.

Picture a bed of nails. A person can lie down on a bed of nails and not get hurt, because the person's weight is distributed over hundreds of nails. This is tolerable - a head without a helmet.

Now, cover the nails with a hard board and a mattress, and you are in a better situation. This is what a helmet does: shield the impact and spreads the force evenly. This is the ideal.

What the frap hat does is different. The frap hat acts in the same way as removing every other row of nails, but padding them. Now, the force of the nails is more accentuated along the ridges. Thus, the force is concentrated along those ridges.

Jump on a bed of nails, you'll get cut. The frap hat prevents the cuts. The helmet prevents cuts, too. But, jump on a bed of padded nails, with rows of nails removed, you won't get cut. You'll just get broken up with your force concentrated along those narrow ridges.

Without the leather ridges, the frap hat would be better than nothing. But the ridges concentrate any blunt force.

They are good for preventing cuts, they keep hair in place, hold dytters, and make you look like a dork. But they are utterly unfit to prevent blunt force trauma.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 8, 2003, 10:00 AM
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Re: [lawrocket] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't disagree that a frap-hat spreads the force over the vertical strips of leather, which is a smaller area then a hard helmet provides.

However - that strip where the force is concentrated, is still bigger then the impact you'd have without one.

Hit your head on the side of the plane without one? You'd have a 25cent piece size round bump. The force is spread over a very small circular area. With a frap hat, the force is spread over a vertical stripe 3 or 4 inches high. You double or triple the area the force is applied to. Not great, but better.

_Am


lawrocket  (Student)

Aug 8, 2003, 10:02 AM
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Re: [AndyMan] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

You may indeed have a point. But the frap hat turns that force blunt, and can prevent to 25 cent bump, but leave you otherwise woozy.

Good discussion, though.


The111  (D 29246)

Aug 8, 2003, 10:02 AM
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Re: [lawrocket] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just my thoughts: you are saying a frap hat is not as good as nothing because it localizes the pressure to one region? Well, what do you think happens when you smack your bare head against something? Unless that something is the EXACT inverse shape of your head, and you fit your head inside that mold perfect (sarcasm obviously), then the wound is going to be inflicted to one small point on your skull. Even distributing over a thin padded ridge is better than a single non-padded contact point, in my opinion. If my reasoning is wrong feel free to point it out. :)

EDIT: Oops. Andy beat me. I agree, even a small increase in area helps (not to mention the fact that it is padded, which your skull is not). About the only exception I can think of is if your skull started crushing and changing shape, in which case you're fucked already, so I won't even bother trying to explain. Pirate


(This post was edited by The111 on Aug 8, 2003, 10:05 AM)


The111  (D 29246)

Aug 8, 2003, 10:06 AM
Post #15 of 82 (4868 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But the frap hat turns that force blunt, and can prevent to 25 cent bump, but leave you otherwise woozy.

Not sure I understand what you mean...


The111  (D 29246)

Aug 8, 2003, 10:09 AM
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Re: [Clownburner] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
another Skydiving urban legend - we seem to have a lot of those, like the "previous group gets to 45 degrees" thing...

Ok, 3rd post in a row and a thread hijacking. Question: I'm a pretty new jumper at DeLand and I've heard a LOT of people (including some of the most experienced jumpers on the DZ) tell me that 45 degree rule, even on jump run as I'm spotting my own exit. Are you implying it's not a good rule? I always kinda wondered about it, I thought personally it wouldn't always be valid depending on how the person flies. Freefliers for example take forever to get to 45 degrees. I usually just give 7-8 secs.


lawrocket  (Student)

Aug 8, 2003, 10:10 AM
Post #17 of 82 (4864 views)
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Re: [The111] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe you have changed my thinking somewhat.

In regards to the 25 cent bump thingy, I'm comparing the frap hat's actions to that like a padded bat. The pads may prevent the visible signs of trauma, but the recipient still took a shot which could leave woozy.

On the whole, though, I think you are right. It probably is better than nothing.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 8, 2003, 10:34 AM
Post #18 of 82 (4849 views)
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Re: [The111] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Are you implying it's not a good rule?

It does not work at all.

>Freefliers for example take forever to get to 45 degrees.

If you actually do the math they never get to 45 degrees. Since many people's impressions of what 45 degrees is differs from person to person, exit separation depends on personal perspective, which is bad.

> I usually just give 7-8 secs.

Not a bad rule as long as you increase that when the uppers are high (i.e. the plane is moving over the ground more slowly.)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 8, 2003, 10:41 AM
Post #19 of 82 (4844 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

> Actually, what Aggie said was right on the money.

Just asked an orthopedic surgeon, and her take:

Most brain damage is caused by deceleration trauma to the brain, not crushing injury to the head. A frap hat, since it will crush, increases deceleration distance and therefore will protect your brain over a hatless impact. Your skull is so strong that deceleration injury will kill you well before your skull gets crushed in by the ribs.


jeremyneas  (D 20133)

Aug 8, 2003, 11:06 AM
Post #20 of 82 (4827 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is so stupid, take all he experts you want. If i take the base of my palm and 'punch' the side of my head it fuckin hurts...if i do it with a frap on i barely feel it.

Case closed.

J.Neas


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 8, 2003, 11:06 AM
Post #21 of 82 (4826 views)
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Re: [The111] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Freefliers for example take forever to get to 45 degrees.

Frequently... people will never get to 45 degrees. If you're going to wait until 45 degrees, you'll frequently have to wait forever.... In my experience, that angle tends to max out between 20 and 30 degrees.

Secondly, the angle a jumper leaves the plane is largely constant. The angle will change really only in the first few seconds, then it will become largely constant. Take a look next time you're in the door.

The angle theory just does not work.


Blahr

Aug 8, 2003, 11:09 AM
Post #22 of 82 (4824 views)
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Re: [The111] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey The111 looks just like Trogdor the Burninator!

I like that one beefy arm sticking out the back of your neck there!


lawrocket  (Student)

Aug 8, 2003, 1:09 PM
Post #23 of 82 (4796 views)
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Re: [billvon] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Just asked an orthopedic surgeon, and her take:

Most brain damage is caused by deceleration trauma to the brain, not crushing injury to the head. A frap hat, since it will crush, increases deceleration distance and therefore will protect your brain over a hatless impact. Your skull is so strong that deceleration injury will kill you well before your skull gets crushed in by the ribs.

Dang. I stand corrected! Well reasoned.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Aug 8, 2003, 6:41 PM
Post #24 of 82 (4745 views)
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Re: [andy2] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But I think frap hats are silly, I mean if youre going to wear a helmet wear a helmet, not a peice of leather...

Funny . . . I can remember jumping with the Green Beret and 82nd Sport Parachute Clubs in the late '80s when only C & D license holders were allowed to wear frap hats. The rest of us were wearing Pro-Tecs, Cooper hockey helmets, and Bell motorcycle helmets. We couldn't wait to hit 100 jumps and get our C license to wear the cool looking and more comfortable frap hat.

How times have changed!

I'm going to go take my Geritol now . . . Unsure


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Aug 8, 2003, 6:46 PM
Post #25 of 82 (4742 views)
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Re: [billvon] Frap Hats More Dangerous Than Going Without A Helmet?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Since many people's impressions of what 45 degrees is differs from person to person, exit separation depends on personal perspective, which is bad.

Teaching demo accuracy in the past, I have asked many different jumpers to show me what a 45 degree angle looks like. Very few of them were close to being in the ballpark.


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