Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
A couple of thoughts

 

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outrager

Jul 21, 2003, 8:40 AM
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A couple of thoughts Can't Post

Yo !

I have been flying a new suit over the weekend (a prototype that is essentially S3 with mylar ribs and other small differences). My regular suit have been pre-S3 prototype with smaller wings, and Skyflyer and Classic before that. A few thoughts i would like to share here:

1. At this point the main limiting factor is muscle power (or rather, muscle endurance). I was very happy with my old suits flying relatively slow, being able to max it out for full 3+ minutes. Now as the speed increases noticeably (and resistance increases as a square of speed) plus the arm wing is quite a bit bigger, it becomes really hard to hold the perfect position for an entire skydive. This is anaerobic endurance issue rather than max power, to put it in a scientific way, since at this point we start to use the muscle close to 100% shutting off the blood flow for a long time.

2. Since flying the suit proved to be an art rather then a science, here's a couple of observations:

Each suit i have flown has it's own "sweet spot" and a feeling associated with it. Usually it's a feeling of laying on a ball of air, or even laying on top of the suit, instead of being inside it ;) Kinda hard to explain, but to repeat the best flights i have to recreate this feeling instead of focusing on body position directly. It is very psychological - sometimes it flies great and other times it's horrible.

A sub-point here, especially with the newer suits: i find that maxing out the suit is an art of balance. Maxed out position is relatively unstable, and any wobbling kills the flight. The balance seems to suffer first whenever you're tired, hangover or in a bad mood. On the new suits the issue is more profound, because we have to balance at near 100% muscle power. Once our muscles get sufficiently tired, they start shaking and loosing balance. It is very noticeable after about 2 minutes into the maxed out flight. Choices are to wobble or to relax a bit - either way abandoning the ideal position. Typical ProTrack data to illustrate the point: 4th flight of the day, 1st minute average is 36mph, 2nd minute is 39mph, and it's probably good it doesn't record after that ;)

Luckily the endurance issue is less of a problem on BASE flights, but soon enough we'll be approaching 2 minutes there too... ;-)

Finally i'm bummed that swooping tandems after maxed out flights is becoming a problem - they're usually below 2k by the time i get to them :(

bsbd!

Yuri.


Premier TomAiello  (D 22400)
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Jul 21, 2003, 8:56 AM
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Re: [outrager] A couple of thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think the mylar is helping with the mucle fatigue problems?

A friend flying a similar suit to yours mentioned that he thought the mylar helped maintain the wing position even when he was getting tired, allowing him to max out the suit longer/better.


outrager

Jul 21, 2003, 9:12 AM
Post #3 of 33 (2069 views)
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Quote:
Do you think the mylar is helping with the mucle fatigue problems?

Not really. When i'm tired the entire wing bends back, but it stays pressurized and keeps the form equally well with or without mylar. IMHO it's more a question of keeping your entire body as a single efficient wing, rather then distorting the arm pieces. So far i don't see mylar making any measurable difference, but it does look cool on the ground ;-)

bsbd!

Yuri.


kevin922  (D 26500)

Jul 21, 2003, 9:22 AM
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Re: [outrager] A couple of thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Yuri, how teh hell are you getting protrak readings? When I flew that suit it consistently shut off my protrak 19 seconds into the flight..


outrager

Jul 21, 2003, 10:01 AM
Post #5 of 33 (2043 views)
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Re: [kevin922] A couple of thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Yo !

I don't know - it seems to work ok in SLO mode during stable flights, but i don't own one and thus don't have enough statistics. I guess if you dive down and flare, at some point it will think you have deployed. I remember seing 30mph or so as a cut-off point, and you can easily slow down way beyond that for a couple of seconds.

Maybe a placement is a factor too ? I usually put it in a side or leg cargo pocket of my pants.

bsbd!

Yuri.


ManBird  (D 28001)

Jul 21, 2003, 12:12 PM
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In reply to:
Maybe a placement is a factor too ? I usually put it in a side or leg cargo pocket of my pants.
Definitely. That's what I do, as well. Putting in one's helmet is pretty much guaranteed to shut it if you look around at all.


kevin922  (D 26500)

Jul 21, 2003, 12:19 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Maybe a placement is a factor too ? I usually put it in a side or leg cargo pocket of my pants.
Definitely. That's what I do, as well. Putting in one's helmet is pretty much guaranteed to shut it if you look around at all.

Well i've done it with wearing two, one on my goggles (no helmet) and one in my shoe.. both of them consistently shut off when I was maxing the suit out.. approximately 19 - 24 seconds into the flight... i've done it 3 or 4 times now.

According to TB99 it is 6 seconds @ :
13 meter/second = 29.0801718 mile/hour (mph)


(This post was edited by kevin922 on Jul 21, 2003, 12:20 PM)


ManBird  (D 28001)

Jul 21, 2003, 12:31 PM
Post #8 of 33 (1999 views)
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Great input, Yuri. Just backing up a few points. Gettin' da hed nods. Er...

In reply to:
1. At this point the main limiting factor is muscle power (or rather, muscle endurance). I was very happy with my old suits flying relatively slow, being able to max it out for full 3+ minutes. Now as the speed increases noticeably (and resistance increases as a square of speed) plus the arm wing is quite a bit bigger, it becomes really hard to hold the perfect position for an entire skydive. This is anaerobic endurance issue rather than max power, to put it in a scientific way, since at this point we start to use the muscle close to 100% shutting off the blood flow for a long time.

Amen to that. This is why I believe that at the end of the day, if you aren't getting fatigued at the two minute mark, you aren't maxing it out. It's that balance of flying it hard and relaxed at the same time.

Andy Ford had the best advice for this problem: go to the gym. While I'm not going an actual gym, per se, I am actually exercising more than I ever thought I would.

Haven't broken three minutes yet, but got 174 seconds on Saturday. Almost there...

In reply to:
Each suit i have flown has it's own "sweet spot" and a feeling associated with it. Usually it's a feeling of laying on a ball of air, or even laying on top of the suit, instead of being inside it ;) Kinda hard to explain, but to repeat the best flights i have to recreate this feeling instead of focusing on body position directly. It is very psychological - sometimes it flies great and other times it's horrible.

Exactly. This is something that's difficult to explain to someone whose trying to figure it out. You can show them the body position, they can get in that body position, but it doesn't really, really fly until they feel that sweet spot and heard everything go quiet and stay that way. I feel the rig lift up off my back and then it feels like I'm laying on the wing of a fighter jet. It's a little hard to relay. ;)

In reply to:
Maxed out position is relatively unstable, and any wobbling kills the flight.
To rephrase a bit, I don't think the maxed out position is unstable at all. I think the maxed out position is very sensitive and very easy to make unstable. I find that I fatigue unevenly. My right shoulder fatigues a little ahead of my left. Rather than let it wobble me to much, I match my left shoulder to my right, which deteriorates the flight, but not not nearly as much as getting into those falling leaf wobbles. I'll bump up my fall rate a good 4 MPH, but if the wobbles really nail me, my fall rate increases as much as 15 or even 20 MPH.


In reply to:
Finally i'm bummed that swooping tandems after maxed out flights is becoming a problem - they're usually below 2k by the time i get to them :(

Yeah, I basically have to dive for the entire flight to meet them at a suitable altitude, and even then, you can be a bit low by the time you clear them.


ManBird  (D 28001)

Jul 21, 2003, 12:35 PM
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In reply to:
According to TB99 it is 6 seconds @ :
13 meter/second = 29.0801718 mile/hour (mph)
Ah. That makes sense. I've recorded down to 21 on my GTi, but I definitely wasn't down that far for more than a few seconds. That also may have been a "helmet-assisted fall rate".


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Jul 21, 2003, 1:16 PM
Post #10 of 33 (1990 views)
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Re: [ManBird] A couple of thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Haven't broken three minutes yet, but got 174 seconds on Saturday. Almost there...


What are you using to track you times? My protrack stops at 119 secs and sometimes even lower. The only way I can get a good idea of the time is to review my video footage time code.


ManBird  (D 28001)

Jul 21, 2003, 1:20 PM
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Video. Just started jumping my FF2 this weekend. :)


TB99  (D 26447)

Jul 21, 2003, 4:42 PM
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... I'll bump up my fall rate a good 4 MPH ...

I'm sorry to go a little off topic, but I find it quite amusing you can tell when your fall rate increases by 4 MPH. Good talent if it's true, I can't see myself accurately predicting my fall rate within 4 MPH.

So back on subject ... I guess I haven't been maxing out at all because I'm never fatigued. I'm getting quite good flights (always near the 2m30s time) without maxing. I haven't tried maxing my new suit out yet because I guess I haven't needed it. I'm enjoying playing in the clouds and doing all the other fun stuff or flying with others. I'll try and max the suit soon and let ya know how fatigued I get.


(This post was edited by TB99 on Jul 21, 2003, 4:43 PM)


ManBird  (D 28001)

Jul 21, 2003, 4:55 PM
Post #13 of 33 (1947 views)
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ProTrack charts. When there's something I want to know about later, like a major fall rate difference, I check my altitude. When I get down, I hook my ProTrack up to my compy and look at the corresponding altitude in the chart. Like if I get fatigued at 7k, I'll look at how much my fall rate went up at 7k. Or inversely, if it goes dead silent at 10k, I'll see how low my rate got on the chart at 10k. I can't actually tell what the difference is just by flying.

Haven't maxed 'cause you don't need to? What's that mean?


Zenister  (A 42)

Jul 21, 2003, 4:59 PM
Post #14 of 33 (1946 views)
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In reply to:

1. At this point the main limiting factor is muscle power (or rather, muscle endurance). I was very happy with my old suits flying relatively slow, being able to max it out for full 3+ minutes. Now as the speed increases noticeably (and resistance increases as a square of speed) plus the arm wing is quite a bit bigger, it becomes really hard to hold the perfect position for an entire skydive. This is anaerobic endurance issue rather than max power, to put it in a scientific way, since at this point we start to use the muscle close to 100% shutting off the blood flow for a long time.

nioce info!

as a follow up to another question (and as a fledgling b-man) what specific muscle groups are you fatiguing? Have you talked to a physical trainer to see specifically what types of exercises may increase endurance for those parts?

I was thinking based on some earlier responses that isometric (?) straining against an immovable object to create muscle tension and fatigue type exercises would be most benificial...i was trying to recreate some of the tensions i've felt so far flying the wingsuit, with a pully machine and a LOT of wieght..but with my poor 'in training B-man technique i'm probably not focusing on the right areas in the right manner..


TB99  (D 26447)

Jul 21, 2003, 5:02 PM
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I dunno ... it just means I'm enjoying my flights and getting decet results right now without the need to fatigue myself and max it out ... when I get bored of what I'm doing now,, I'll try maxing it and give you results.


ManBird  (D 28001)

Jul 21, 2003, 5:30 PM
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Hey, Randy. So have you been getting some flights in? You coming down this weekend for the Jumpfest? I've got my camera helmet now, so I can attempt to get some wingsuit video. I've got a ways to go before I get this camera thing dialed in.


ManBird  (D 28001)

Jul 21, 2003, 5:32 PM
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In reply to:
I dunno ... it just means I'm enjoying my flights and getting decet results right now without the need to fatigue myself and max it out ... when I get bored of what I'm doing now,, I'll try maxing it and give you results.
A-ight. How many flights are you up to nowadays? Still mixing it up between freeflying and the suit, or have completely joined the new dark side? Hey, was that you that scored a modified ProTrack that had no time limit, or am I thinking of someone else?


TB99  (D 26447)

Jul 21, 2003, 5:38 PM
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LOL ... I've been almost soley flying wingsuits for a while now! I'm in the 150-175 flights range, dunno exactly anymore, I'd have to recount in the logbook ...

I do go FFing every so rarely, but it's mainly just the suit for me.

And to answer your question about the pro-track ... uh noCrazy


ManBird  (D 28001)

Jul 21, 2003, 6:12 PM
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Shoot, who was it. L&B does do ProTracks without time limits now, and I believe they will modify current ones. My camera helmet is my new ProTrack. :)

Edited to add: That's good. We need lots of people flying wingsuits as their primary discipline. Too many suits in gear bags right now. Dammit. I need to get back down there some time to get my BM-I. 'Bout 235 flights right now. Yee-haw. Trying to hit 300 by one month from now... one year from when I first started flying these thingies. 65 in a month... I shall be very broke and very tired (or really ripped). Stockpiling the ibuprofin now.

Fly around a 12,000' tall cloud for me.


(This post was edited by ManBird on Jul 21, 2003, 6:18 PM)


Zenister  (A 42)

Jul 21, 2003, 7:08 PM
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yeah...didnt jump last weekend to save cash, but i should get 3-4 more in this week and then i'll be down to play some, since just spent $700 for a reserve

depending on loads etc i'll be making mostly b-man jumps, but i know there is talk of some serious hybrid play and i'm all about that too so...


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Jul 21, 2003, 7:55 PM
Post #21 of 33 (1901 views)
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Quote:
L&B does do ProTracks without time limits now, and I believe they will modify current ones.

Is this shit house rumor or straight from L&B? If so what's the mod called/cost to have done?


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Jul 21, 2003, 8:05 PM
Post #22 of 33 (1898 views)
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OK, I must be getting some bogus readings or some of you guys are full of helium. Post some of your protrack data shots up to see cause I'm just not getting the same numbers when I'm done cyphering and yes I took my shoes off too.Wink


TB99  (D 26447)

Jul 22, 2003, 4:56 AM
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Yes, we do make a special version of the Pro-Track which records data up
to 30 minutes. This unit was made for military purposes and canopy
manufacturers.

I am sorry that the present Pro-Track does not record for more than 120
sec.

Best regards,
Mads Larsen

There you have it ....


kevin922  (D 26500)

Jul 22, 2003, 5:50 AM
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In reply to:
Quote:
Yes, we do make a special version of the Pro-Track which records data up
to 30 minutes. This unit was made for military purposes and canopy
manufacturers.

I am sorry that the present Pro-Track does not record for more than 120
sec.

Best regards,
Mads Larsen

There you have it ....

Ahh but will they trade them out ??

:)

Hopefully it won't matter much when I get my neptune..

Kevin


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Jul 22, 2003, 5:50 AM
Post #25 of 33 (1844 views)
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NOICE. Now I have some work to doLaugh but that still doesn't explain why mine consistently stops at 119/118. Anyone have similiar results?


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