Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
pulling in a track

 

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andy2

Jul 17, 2003, 6:28 AM
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pulling in a track Can't Post

I know this might vary a lot depending on the canopy, but I've heard a lot of stuff in the pull altitude thread about pulling in a track. Doing so apparently makes the canopy open faster. Would this also make the canopy deploy harder on the body? Or does this just speed up the initial deployment, still letting the canopy open softly? I will try pulling in a track unless anyone has anything negative to say against it... I don't want to put undo stress on either my canopy or my body...


DYEVOUT  (Student)

Jul 17, 2003, 6:33 AM
Post #2 of 32 (1932 views)
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Re: [andy2] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a rookie with only 18 jumps, so bear that in mind. I accidentally tracked a little low a while back, and dumped while I still had some forward motion.

WHAM !! Sabre 230 at 1:1 really let me have it. No more, thanks.

(4 more posts, and I turn into something else)


SkydiverRick  (D 13360)

Jul 17, 2003, 6:40 AM
Post #3 of 32 (1928 views)
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Re: [andy2] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally don't recommend it. Parachutes are designed to open while you are in a belly to earth stable position. If my parachute opened slow enough to concern me I would check things like pilot chute wear/size, slider size, line trim, porosity,etc.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2003, 7:04 AM
Post #4 of 32 (1908 views)
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Re: [andy2] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

There's pulling in a track and there's pulling in a dive.

Maybe it's obvious, but I'll go ahead and mention it anyway . . . parachutes are designed to open below certain airspeeds. Check yours and see what that airspeed might be.

Notice I didn't nor does the limitation of your canopy say anything about fall rate, but rather airspeed. This will be the vector sum of your vertical AND horizontal motion. Exceed the specified limits and your parachute might not operate the way it is designed to operate. For example, it may simply give you a very hard opening or it may structurally fail.

Further, depending on the design of the container you have, the deployment bag may not depart from it properly in a track. It may "catch" slightly on the bottom closing flap and may tumble out of the container causing line twists.

This is NOT to say that a person -can't- open in a track, but there -are- things to consider.

Personally, I find that if I don't have a little bit of forward motion (and in my case I'm only talking about a couple feet, since I usually pull "in-place") my canopies have a tendancy to open "funky".


chuteless  (D 41)

Jul 17, 2003, 7:09 AM
Post #5 of 32 (1902 views)
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Re: [quade] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

as I said on another thread, pulling in a track can, and usually will put your lights out. If in tracking, you are slightly head down, and thats when you pull, the brain cannot stand the opening shock at speed as well as such a quick change of position, and combined the lights go out. I have had it happenonce, and know others who were totally unconcious once the canopy opened. Its hazardous thing to do, and its even more dangerous for whuffo/sudents who dont know where their head is when the pull at best of times. Dont encourage the students to emulate the more experienced jumpers....or disaster may hit your DZ.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jul 17, 2003, 7:14 AM
Post #6 of 32 (1898 views)
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Re: [andy2] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

At your experience level FORGET about pulling in a track. Until you know the characteristics of your equipment better you don't have enough information to make that decision.

I'm the one that brought it up in the other thread, only because I used to do it with my round paracommander, in a sleeve with an on Paracommander wimpy spring loaded pilot chute. Pulling in a track is like pulling in any higher speed body position. Every thing will be faster and harder. Now, if I had a newer canopy that was designed to take 700 feet to open, I might experiment with it. But if I pull in a track with my original sabre I'm liable to break my back. That's a slight exageration but possible. When I first transitioned to a ram air I was so used to pulling in a track with my round that I was getting harder than normal (for that time) openings. It took me a couple of months to realize I was still pulling in a track.Crazy

Bottom line DON'T DO IT at your level.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2003, 7:25 AM
Post #7 of 32 (1888 views)
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Re: [chuteless] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

And as I said in this thread, there are a number of things to consider.

I am neither condeming it nor condoning it.
With the right canopy and container, it's quite safe and quite normal.
With the wrong canopy and container it's probably going to be a lot of trouble.

To say that it "usually will put your lights out" is an over simplification. For instance, BirdMen almost always open in a track.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 17, 2003, 7:26 AM
Post #8 of 32 (1884 views)
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Re: [andy2] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know this might vary a lot depending on the canopy, but I've heard a lot of stuff in the pull altitude thread about pulling in a track. Doing so apparently makes the canopy open faster. Would this also make the canopy deploy harder on the body? Or does this just speed up the initial deployment, still letting the canopy open softly? I will try pulling in a track unless anyone has anything negative to say against it... I don't want to put undo stress on either my canopy or my body...


Look through the old magazines for pictures of people "tracking" away after big ways. Some are clearly in a steep dive, and some are much higher and flatter.

If you breakoff into a dive your airspeed will increase and your opening will be faster if you pull in the "track".

In a good, flat track your fall rate will decrease so much that your overall airspeed will decrease despite the horizontal speed that you develop. The flat track allows you more time in the air before deployment so you can achieve better horizontal separation from the other jumpers. Deploying in a flat track does not give a hard opening.

If you have a pro-track, just do a jump where you track the entire time and see what your fall rate is. Mount the pro-track on your ankle or harness lateral for better accuracy. (Make sure you let the others on the load know that you are going to do a tracking jump, and don't track up or down the line of the jump run).

In my regular RW suit my fall rate in a track is around 80 - 85mph. I know people that get down to 75mph or so in a RW suit. These speeds are 35 - 45mph less than the nominal 120mph RW fall rate.

(None of the above applies to wing suits, of course.)

Track like your life depends on it.


chuteless  (D 41)

Jul 17, 2003, 7:33 AM
Post #9 of 32 (1874 views)
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Re: [quade] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

I flew with wings back in 1968...although not used for tracking. The vertical dscent speed is extremely slower, so for you to say "Birdmen almost always pull in a track," isnt quite relevant. My problem with the idea of pulling in a track, is of you are head down, the opening shock (without wings) is hard on the brain for the speed vertical/horizontal, to a stop under the inflated canopy. The Para Commander is a great canopy, and I always used it for extremely low openings. However, I shudder to think these threads encourage even one student to go above his limitations "because he read that its possible" I thought this thread was generating "safety"


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 17, 2003, 8:17 AM
Post #10 of 32 (1842 views)
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Re: [chuteless] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My problem with the idea of pulling in a track, is of you are head down, the opening shock (without wings) is hard on the brain for the speed vertical/horizontal, to a stop under the inflated canopy.

Why do you track "head down" anyway?


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Jul 17, 2003, 8:21 AM
Post #11 of 32 (1838 views)
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Re: [andy2] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

Not suggested if you are flying a good old crap sabre!

If a canopy opens faster you will definately fell it "deploy harder on the body".

You will put undo stress both on your canopy and your body.


rendezvous  (C License)

Jul 17, 2003, 8:52 AM
Post #12 of 32 (1818 views)
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Re: [andy2] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

At 27 jumps I'd suggest you stay the heck away from pulling in track. It's not worth the experience. Not until you really understand the mechanics behind what happens and what it can do to you and your gear. If you want to experience a hard opening, just wait a bit and I'm sure you'll experience one not too far out in the future. I've opened in a track once ( by mistake ) and IT WASN'T A GOOD FEELING ! ... scary I like, but this went further and knocked the wind out of me. It can get quite dangerous so my advice is NO ! Don't do it. Atleast not with only 27 jumps under your belt.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2003, 8:57 AM
Post #13 of 32 (1814 views)
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Re: [kallend] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

>Deploying in a flat track does not give a hard opening.

When you deploy in any sort of track, your canopy opens somewhat behind you. That means you rotate more than the standard 90 degrees. That makes somewhat hard openings much harder; your body is torqued a lot more while the canopy is opening. That's one reason people used to sit up after they pulled to reduce opening shock. It doesn't neccessarily reduce deceleration, but allows your body to get beat up less during the opening.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2003, 9:00 AM
Post #14 of 32 (1809 views)
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Re: [billvon] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That's one reason people used to sit up after they pulled . . .

Doesn't everybody do this? I mean, like, obviously NOT, but it still works . . . I do it.

And, why couldn't/wouldn't a person do this on a track opening?


(This post was edited by quade on Jul 17, 2003, 9:01 AM)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jul 17, 2003, 9:06 AM
Post #15 of 32 (1801 views)
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Re: [quade] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a good point that I will tie into what a lot of us do on BirdMan jumps. While I do throw out in much more than a regular track, I drop my knees about a second after the pull to get the bag to come straight off my back. This cures the "whiplash" scenario that was being discussed a few posts up. Still, like others have already stated, I would not be dumping a stock Sabre or a Monarch like that. Not one known to smack anyway.

Chuck


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Jul 17, 2003, 9:13 AM
Post #16 of 32 (1795 views)
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Re: [billvon] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Deploying in a flat track does not give a hard opening.

When you deploy in any sort of track, your canopy opens somewhat behind you. That means you rotate more than the standard 90 degrees. That makes somewhat hard openings much harder; your body is torqued a lot more while the canopy is opening. That's one reason people used to sit up after they pulled to reduce opening shock. It doesn't neccessarily reduce deceleration, but allows your body to get beat up less during the opening.

I've never been able to get the timing to sit up during deployment.

Up until a few weeks ago, I had no problem deploying in a track - esp if I was on a big way and needed the extra room....track until 2k and pull...great life saving technique. Plus it is always interesting to see just how far forward your body will swing!

However, after a high breakoff a couple weeks ago, I deployed in a very fast flat track (most likely had a lazy throw as well) and had the PC bounce off my ankle. After an odd (never felt this before) tug behind me, I was stood up with line twists all the way behind my head.

If you don't need to deploy in a track - don't. deploy stable whenever you can.


Zenister  (A 42)

Jul 17, 2003, 10:34 AM
Post #17 of 32 (1765 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's a good point that I will tie into what a lot of us do on BirdMan jumps. While I do throw out in much more than a regular track, I drop my knees about a second after the pull to get the bag to come straight off my back. This cures the "whiplash" scenario that was being discussed a few posts up. Still, like others have already stated, I would not be dumping a stock Sabre or a Monarch like that. Not one known to smack anyway.

Chuck

i was trying to get the hang of that after my first few birdman jumps to help slow the forward speed..the first one i pulled 'normally' and went for one hell of a ride...lots of fun, but i'm damn glad my sabre opens nice...


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 17, 2003, 10:44 AM
Post #18 of 32 (1756 views)
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Re: [quade] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
That's one reason people used to sit up after they pulled . . .

Doesn't everybody do this? I mean, like, obviously NOT, but it still works . . . I do it.

And, why couldn't/wouldn't a person do this on a track opening?

I do that, throw out then drop my knees so I'm kneeling.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2003, 10:44 AM
Post #19 of 32 (1755 views)
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Re: [quade] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

>Doesn't everybody do this?

I don't. I try to stay as symmetrical as possible during opening; that's easier to do face to earth.

>And, why couldn't/wouldn't a person do this on a track opening?

Well, then they wouldn't be opening in a track, would they?


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 17, 2003, 10:44 AM
Post #20 of 32 (1755 views)
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Re: [ChasingBlueSky] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Deploying in a flat track does not give a hard opening.

When you deploy in any sort of track, your canopy opens somewhat behind you. That means you rotate more than the standard 90 degrees. That makes somewhat hard openings much harder; your body is torqued a lot more while the canopy is opening. That's one reason people used to sit up after they pulled to reduce opening shock. It doesn't neccessarily reduce deceleration, but allows your body to get beat up less during the opening.

I've never been able to get the timing to sit up during deployment.

Up until a few weeks ago, I had no problem deploying in a track - esp if I was on a big way and needed the extra room....track until 2k and pull...great life saving technique. Plus it is always interesting to see just how far forward your body will swing!

However, after a high breakoff a couple weeks ago, I deployed in a very fast flat track (most likely had a lazy throw as well) and had the PC bounce off my ankle. After an odd (never felt this before) tug behind me, I was stood up with line twists all the way behind my head.

If you don't need to deploy in a track - don't. deploy stable whenever you can.

Your track is unstable, Bo? Better work on it!


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2003, 10:49 AM
Post #21 of 32 (1751 views)
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Re: [billvon] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

All I'm talking about is rotating a bit head high during/after the snatch so as to smooth out the transition between a basic belly-to-earth orientation to sitting up in the harness. Then again, I suspect you already know what I'm talking about.


(This post was edited by quade on Jul 17, 2003, 10:49 AM)


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Jul 17, 2003, 11:20 AM
Post #22 of 32 (1731 views)
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Re: [kallend] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
If you don't need to deploy in a track - don't. deploy stable whenever you can.

Your track is unstable, Bo? Better work on it!

Would that be considered a personal attack? Wink

From my understanding, a stable body position at pull time is defined as belly to earth, symetrical body position with no horizontal movement. Therefore a track would not be considerd a stable body position for deployment. Wingsuit jumpers usually get a modification in the main tray to compensate for the forward movement and the effect it has on deployment. Last time I talked to Jari, he told me how he thought at one time that no one would be able to jump a highly loaded eliptical canopy while flying one of his suits - it wasn't until this modification that this became possible (IIRC). Unless you are on a big way with a crowded sky or flying a wingsuit - there is no reason to deploy in a track. Stick to the basics, deploy stable.


chuteless  (D 41)

Jul 17, 2003, 11:58 AM
Post #23 of 32 (1720 views)
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Re: [kallend] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

the second you drop your hands lower than your shoulders, your head and shoulders will drop slightly, so your body is not horizontal with the durface of the earth, you are travelling slightly "head and shoulders down". If your hands and arms are in front of you, that is sufficient to hold your head and shoulders so your body is entirely flat and horizontal with the earth. Surely this isnt new to you?


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 17, 2003, 12:05 PM
Post #24 of 32 (1715 views)
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Re: [andy2] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me put it this way...

I've got over 300 jump on my Heatwave, and I'm really good about flying the openings...

Last time I pulled in a all on track, I almost had to chop it due to line twists that tried to spin on me. Not to mention it was one shitty opening. What happened was that the d-bag "bounced" out of my container at an odd angle, which caused it to turn and start to spin before it had even pulled away enough to pull the locking stows.

Although I only have about 600 jumps, my recommendation would be *not* to pull in a track.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2003, 12:27 PM
Post #25 of 32 (1699 views)
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Re: [quade] pulling in a track [In reply to] Can't Post

>All I'm talking about is rotating a bit head high during/after the
> snatch so as to smooth out the transition between a basic belly-to
>-earth orientation to sitting up in the harness.

OK, but does "pulling in a track" refer to someone who does NOT change their body position at all before the canopy rotates them? If so, that might be the reason they perceive the opening as faster.


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