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flaring into high winds?

 

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andy2

Jul 7, 2003, 10:11 AM
Post #1 of 27 (2122 views)
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flaring into high winds? Can't Post

I was wondering, from this past weekend, how do you flare in high winds, i.e. winds high enough that you are moving backwards when pointed directly into them. I flared as normal, but very quickly got dumped on my ass, and my parachute dropped to the ground, and reinflated, i had to pull one toggle, and run to the side to get it deflated.

Is this a problem that will be solved when I have a higher WL? Right now I dont get very good penetration at all loaded like .6 on a huge ass manta.

Thanks.


superflie  (D License)

Jul 7, 2003, 10:24 AM
Post #2 of 27 (2097 views)
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Re: [andy2] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

If your profile is up to date, you have 22 jumps. If the winds are so high that you are moving backwards when facing into the wind, you might want to consider staying on the ground. At this point the answer is not wing-loading, but decision making. When I was a relatively new jumper, my buddy and I manifested for a load on a windy day. The experienced jumpers pulled up some lawn chairs next to the landing area to, "watch the show." They said if jumpers with 1,000's of jumps were staying on the ground we should reconsider our choices. We did and got ourselves off the load. At this point, don't add another risk variable by jumping in marginal weather conditions.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Jul 7, 2003, 10:34 AM
Post #3 of 27 (2085 views)
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Re: [andy2] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

superflie gave you some really good advise about staying on the ground in high winds. But to answer your question, if you are jumping in high winds, you don't need to flare as much. You may not notice this that much with your current canopies you fly, but at some point you'll start flying smaller canopies and the flare technique used to to first plane out (arresting your vertical descent rate) and then bleed off the horizontal ground speed with the second stage of the flare. But in high winds, you don't need to worry about the horizontal ground speed. So all you need to do is flare less than you normally would to slow your vertical decent rate, and once on the ground pull in one of your toggles until the canopy collapses and then run over and step on your canopy and/or dbag to prevent it from blowing away. Also, you may need to use your front risers to help pentrate the winds and get down out of them. But front riser work needs to be practiced up high before you do them down low and never never let go of your toggles when going for your front risers.

I was forced to land once this last weekend in high winds and it sucked. But I used the above technique and had no real issues. But I'd much rather jump in low to no wind situations.


(This post was edited by CanuckInUSA on Jul 7, 2003, 10:39 AM)


PhillyKev

Jul 7, 2003, 10:41 AM
Post #4 of 27 (2075 views)
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Re: [superflie] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If the winds are so high that you are moving backwards when facing into the wind, you might want to consider staying on the ground.

100% agreement, but winds can kick up while you're in the plane. The winds were a little iffy for me this weekend. Right on the edge of where I'd decide not to jump. I made the decision to jump for the simple reason that I could get some experience in higher winds that I know about, rather than waiting for when they're a suprise to learn how to handle them.

That being said, I found that a slightly higher, much slower flare worked well to sink it down instead of my usual sorta 2 stage w/ mini swoop.

Practice feeling what a good flare is, feeling the lift in your leg straps when you start, slight swing forward and keeping yourself in that position throughout the flare. If you learn to fly the flare and feel it instead of just relying on muscle memory for a specific rate of flare at a specific height, you'll be able to handle a wider variety of conditions.


andy2

Jul 7, 2003, 10:53 AM
Post #5 of 27 (2064 views)
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Re: [superflie] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If your profile is up to date, you have 22 jumps. If the winds are so high that you are moving backwards when facing into the wind, you might want to consider staying on the ground. At this point the answer is not wing-loading, but decision making. When I was a relatively new jumper, my buddy and I manifested for a load on a windy day. The experienced jumpers pulled up some lawn chairs next to the landing area to, "watch the show." They said if jumpers with 1,000's of jumps were staying on the ground we should reconsider our choices. We did and got ourselves off the load. At this point, don't add another risk variable by jumping in marginal weather conditions.

hey man, thats great advice. I do watch the winds constantly, and am pretty good about grounding myself. I didnt make anymore jumps that day as they were consistently staying high. Thing is, this wind not only probably cranked up about 5-7 mph from when I was on the ground to when I exited the aircraft, it also shifted considerably. I was pretty happy about how I handled it. I wish everyday was about 2-3 mph winds in a constant direction though Cool


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Jul 7, 2003, 10:56 AM
Post #6 of 27 (2061 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But to answer your question, if you are jumping in high winds, you don't need to flare as much.

Huh?

How did your canopy figure out how much the winds were blowing and why does it react differently?

The reason I ask is because, I don't think it does.

If, in no wind you started your flare at x feet high and it took y seconds to touch down, then (without regard to turbulence) those numbers should remain the same for just about any wind conditions including high winds and down wind landings.


andy2

Jul 7, 2003, 10:56 AM
Post #7 of 27 (2059 views)
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Re: [PhillyKev] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Practice feeling what a good flare is, feeling the lift in your leg straps when you start, slight swing forward and keeping yourself in that position throughout the flare. If you learn to fly the flare and feel it instead of just relying on muscle memory for a specific rate of flare at a specific height, you'll be able to handle a wider variety of conditions.

Thanks, I need to start working on this. I can feel the two stage flare even on this light of a WL, but what I need to start working on is compensating for different winds, etc.

Thanks for the advice, anymore is appreciated.


fundgh  (C 34140)

Jul 7, 2003, 11:13 AM
Post #8 of 27 (2045 views)
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Re: [andy2] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

I, too, flew in high winds yesterday. My wingloading does help, I remember a backwards landing under a sky barge. The winds were not heavy enough to ground the young uns, yet with a near .5 wingloading, it does not take much to blow you back. The flare is definately a FEEL thing. Know your canopy and you will be fine.


PhillyKev

Jul 7, 2003, 11:14 AM
Post #9 of 27 (2044 views)
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Re: [andy2] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

Use a few jumps (or more) just practicing your flare while in your holding area. That way you can get 10 times more experience feeling the flare than you do just practicing it when you land. You don't need the ground as reference to see what it should feel like to fly your canopy through the flare.


Costyn  (D 92506)

Jul 7, 2003, 11:14 AM
Post #10 of 27 (2041 views)
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Re: [quade] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Huh?

How did your canopy figure out how much the winds were blowing and why does it react differently?

The reason I ask is because, I don't think it does.

If, in no wind you started your flare at x feet high and it took y seconds to touch down, then (without regard to turbulence) those numbers should remain the same for just about any wind conditions including high winds and down wind landings.

Okay, while I can't spot any flaws in your logic, from my own experience I can say I definitely need a lot less flare on windy days. I can land softly pulling my toggles down to only half brakes. On windless days, I need some flare to level my canopy off and some more to finally stop.

So whats up with that?

Cheers,

Costyn.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 7, 2003, 11:20 AM
Post #11 of 27 (2033 views)
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Re: [quade] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
But to answer your question, if you are jumping in high winds, you don't need to flare as much.

Huh?

How did your canopy figure out how much the winds were blowing and why does it react differently?

The reason I ask is because, I don't think it does.

If, in no wind you started your flare at x feet high and it took y seconds to touch down, then (without regard to turbulence) those numbers should remain the same for just about any wind conditions including high winds and down wind landings.

In no wind I need to stop my vertical descent and reduce horizontal speed to that at which I can run (remember, I'm in my dotage). In a strong wind all I need do is stop my vertical descent, which on my canopy needs toggles at about shoulder level.


PhillyKev

Jul 7, 2003, 11:23 AM
Post #12 of 27 (2032 views)
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Re: [Costyn] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

The higher wind will arrest your forward ground speed allowing you to touch down without running it out even if you haven't finished your flare. But, you're not really flying your canopy to the ground, you're letting the ground stop your descent instead of your flare.


Genn  (D 22590)

Jul 7, 2003, 11:24 AM
Post #13 of 27 (2031 views)
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Re: [andy2] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

I also jumped in high winds this weekend. However, my WL is a lot higher than yours. As you jump more and gain more experience in different conditions, you we be able to see your rate of descent towards the ground. You'll also be ablt to feel if you canopy is dropping out of the sky.

Even at my current wingloading, I had a problem landing in the winds once.

I was jumping at Para-Ski...we lost ground/air communication and got out of the helo. We all opened coming straight down in a crazy wind/snow storm. We landed off and on a small clearing of the mountain. The second I landed, I was pulled back off my feet and was hauling as on my back. I was trying to collapse the canopy with my toggle, but I looked over my shoulder and saw I was heading for a house...I quickly cutaway....just be sure you do not have an RSL....if you ever need to cutaway in a similar situation.Wink


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jul 7, 2003, 11:47 AM
Post #14 of 27 (2013 views)
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Re: [quade] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Huh?

How did your canopy figure out how much the winds were blowing and why does it react differently?

The reason I ask is because, I don't think it does.

If, in no wind you started your flare at x feet high and it took y seconds to touch down, then (without regard to turbulence) those numbers should remain the same for just about any wind conditions including high winds and down wind landings.

The canopy does respond the same, but because of the lack of foward ground speed, less flare is required.

The initial part of the flare stops the vertical speed, the second half of the flare stops the horizontal speed. No horizontal speed= no 2nd half of flare. This is what makes swooping across the ground possible.

Hook


hookitt  (D License)

Jul 7, 2003, 12:50 PM
Post #15 of 27 (1984 views)
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Re: [andy2] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

When you start jumping the monarch, Just flare it. You can probably flare it slower and lower. The 2 stage flare will not really come into affect for you at the wingload you'll be flying.

If the wind comes up, the amount of flare needed to stop your forward motion will be minimal. So when it does, get closer to the ground than you would with a light or no wind landing and flare. Most likely the canopy will stop flying forward when the toggles are at about shoulder level. (give or take)

flare evenly and carefully pay attention to whether you go back up or backwards and let up on the toggles accordingly. When your feet are firmly planted on the ground, THEN let go of one toggle turn, turn around reel in the brake line and run quickly toward your parachute and get around the back of it if possible. Don't lean back and try and resist it, you will lose.

Most of the time you can also just step on the bridle as you run after the canopy.
Hope this helps

Tim


masher  (D 3806)

Jul 7, 2003, 7:16 PM
Post #16 of 27 (1900 views)
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Re: [andy2] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

Warning: 100 jump wonder posting.

Conditions don't have to be bad for you to be moving backwards under canopy into wind. I did that numerous times when I was a student; a 270 loaded at ~0.6-0.7 helped a bit. The first time I flared, and got dumped on my arse. I asked what I should do in the future, and I was told to not flare, and to PLF.

The explanation given to me was that flaring reduces the airspeed of the canopy. If you're already going backwards, flaring (reducing airspeed) will make you go backwards faster, therefore, don't flare.

.

Last weekend, I was jump in highish winds (15-20 kn) and I was just penetrating, consequently my flare stroke wasn't as long as a no-wind day, which is consistent with what has been said.

.

added: Basically, as far as I see it, the reason for changing your flare is due to your groundspeed. Your canopy only cares about airspeed, but you would like to have as close to zero (normally) _groundspeed_ before landing. So, as the wind increases, the amount of flare required decreases. This is probably a non-linear relationship, I haven't got enough experience to comment on that.


(This post was edited by masher on Jul 7, 2003, 7:20 PM)


Kris  (D 26033)

Jul 7, 2003, 7:51 PM
Post #17 of 27 (1888 views)
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Re: [masher] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
added: Basically, as far as I see it, the reason for changing your flare is due to your groundspeed. Your canopy only cares about airspeed, but you would like to have as close to zero (normally) _groundspeed_ before landing.

You're forgetting one small thing...rate of descent. A PLF may work for a lightly-loaded canopy, but a pocket rocket coming out of the sky at 2000fpm is a different matter.

Flare as much as you need to flare to land your canopy safely.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Jul 7, 2003, 8:09 PM
Post #18 of 27 (1885 views)
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Re: [Kris] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Flare as much as you need to flare to land your canopy safely.

Well said. Wink


Jimbo  (D License)

Jul 7, 2003, 8:18 PM
Post #19 of 27 (1879 views)
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Re: [Kris] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
Flare as much as you need to flare to land your canopy safely.

I wondered when this would come out. Come on people, it's all about flying your canopy all the way to the ground. Fly your canopy, you need to be in control, not just along for the ride.

-
Jim


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 8, 2003, 7:51 AM
Post #20 of 27 (1780 views)
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Re: [Jimbo] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

The superior skydiver uses his superior judgement so that he won't have to demonstrate his superior skills.
Most of this discussion has been about superior skills.
Let's get back to superior judgement.
When mantas replaced round parachutes for students, 20-some-odd-years-ago we saw a dramatic reduction on landing injuries. i believe that reduction was because students no longer had to do backwards PLFs. These days skydivers only have to do backwards PLFs when the winds are too strong. The simple solution to this is stopping jumping when canopies start backing up.
Hint, when the POPS are sitting out the windiest part of the day, maybe you should too.


callahan  (D License)

Jul 8, 2003, 8:05 AM
Post #21 of 27 (1774 views)
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Re: [andy2] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

The reason you got dumped after you flaired is because you held the toggles down too long after you landed . I'll usually drop them just as my feet touch . I'll turn around and walk back towards the canopy to release the pressure off the lines . I'll keep walking and get downwind of the canopy as I gather up my lines . I was always taught that if you chop it , to hold onto one toggle so the canopy doesn't blow away .


Jimbo  (D License)

Jul 8, 2003, 9:21 AM
Post #22 of 27 (1754 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
The superior skydiver uses his superior judgement so that he won't have to demonstrate his superior skills.

Agreed. However sometimes we forget about good judgement anyway, when we do, it's nice to know how to react in such a way as to limit the punishment we have to take for our lack of good judgement. No?

-
Jim


ZoneRat  (D 26968)

Jul 8, 2003, 10:04 AM
Post #23 of 27 (1741 views)
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Re: [callahan] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

Another thing to think about when landing in higher winds: Flaring problems are exacerbated. Small mistakes that you can get away with in low winds are less forgiving as the winds go up. An uneven flare, reaching towards the ground at touchdown, not flying your canopy until it's deflated and on the ground... all these mistakes as well as many others may provide a wonderful show for those jumpers that opted off the load.

In addition to the flare, there are other things you may wish to consider should you find yourself in higher winds.

Your landing pattern will change considerably. That is, how you fly to your holding area, when you chose to turn to cross wind and final, will be very different than you may be used to. It's very easy to find to yourself in the wrong place on final approach.

Here's something to think about: You're on final and find yourself over an obstacle... you're not getting the forward drive you need to clear it. You might be tempted to try a low altitude sachet. Don't. Even a rear riser sachet can drive you into the ground. If you have the altitude, you can go to quarter or half brakes, allowing yourself to be blown backwards away from the obstacle. After a bit, you can *slowly* raise the toggle back to full flight and land. Keep them even. Stay in the wind line.

Something else to remember is that burbles/ turbulence from hangers and other structures will increase in intensity and range.

Once you're on the ground, and you've collapsed your canopy as much as you can by pulling one toggle line, step on the PC bridal. Walk up the bridal to where it connects to the canopy. Keep a foot near that connection while you gather your canopy.

In any case, the best bet is to stay off the load if winds are high. Get a sandwich and watch the show as the other jumpers come in.


rhino  (D 22500)

Jul 8, 2003, 10:15 AM
Post #24 of 27 (1730 views)
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Re: [superflie] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If your profile is up to date, you have 22 jumps. If the winds are so high that you are moving backwards when facing into the wind, you might want to consider staying on the ground.

Yep... Agreed..


hookitt  (D License)

Jul 8, 2003, 12:32 PM
Post #25 of 27 (1696 views)
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Re: [rhino] flaring into high winds? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If your profile is up to date, you have 22 jumps. If the winds are so high that you are moving backwards when facing into the wind, you might want to consider staying on the ground.

---------------------------------
Yep... Agreed..

-That's fine that every one agrees that staying on the ground is a best option. However, it is not uncommon for wind to increase considerably from the time you exit to the time you must land. A generic statement of stay on the ground is useless.

I've landed backwards in excessive winds under a highly wingloaded canopy. Last wind report was 14 which is the maximum for a student (for comparison sake). The winds when I landed were in excess of 30.

It's a good question deserving a good answer. On My jump number 13 (go figure Tongue ) I was on a coach dive with a Jumpmaster teaching me fallrate. The winds increased tremmedously. The landing zone kept getting further in front of me. I landed backward on the side of a hill because it was the safest place behind me.

I have plenty more real life examples. Answering These type of questions with "Stay on the ground" or "You don't have enough jumps to touch your front risers" ...etc,etc...has no useful benifits.


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