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Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury)

 

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Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 24, 2003, 11:45 AM
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Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) Can't Post

What's your opinion Bill, on an "A-only" licensed jumper with 800+/- jumps wanting to help out a 20-30 something jump wonder being regulatorilly <---(new word there?) DISALLOWED from doing this, because the new ISP says said "experienced" jumper "MUST" have his/her coaches rating?

Maybe this question needs to be moved from this thread instead to "talk-back" or something too, for appropriate discussion. ---Please feel free to do this if you would for me. Seems we are all getting a little off the beaten path, at least relative to the incident entitled at hand. -THANKS!


(This post was edited by billvon on Jun 24, 2003, 1:40 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 24, 2003, 1:42 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

>What's your opinion Bill, on an "A-only" licensed jumper with 800+/-
> jumps wanting to help out a 20-30 something jump wonder being
> regulatorilly <---(new word there?) DISALLOWED from doing this,
> because the new ISP says said "experienced" jumper "MUST" have
> his/her coaches rating?

This has come up a lot, and I think that it's a shame if that's applied as a blanket rule. There is nothing in the BSR's that says you have to be a coach to jump with a new jumper; I would hope the S+TA would be flexible enough to let a qualified experienced jumper jump with a new jumper. It's how I learned most of what I learned about RW.


SkySlut  (D License)

Jun 24, 2003, 4:35 PM
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Re: [billvon] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you familiar with the BPA, FS1 rating that newer jumpers get. I am not totally sure wether I agree with it or not, but it is a good point to bring up. A post AFF student cant jump with anyone until they get an FS1 rating, which consists of about 12 one on one jumps and they must complete a 4 point 4 way to "graduate". Once they show that they can safely do RW then they can jump with another jumper...until then they are stuck doing solos. It makes them safer and it gives them some motivation to get better. The BPA also makes them do 10 consolidation jumps before they can do the FS1. If they want to freefly, they have to get the FS1 rating first and then they must get coaching to get their FF1 rating. There are some improvements that can be made but it does make better and more importantly safer skydivers. Any thoughts on that???


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 24, 2003, 4:43 PM
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Re: [SkySlut] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

>A post AFF student cant jump with anyone until they get an FS1
> rating, which consists of about 12 one on one jumps and they must
> complete a 4 point 4 way to "graduate".

Dumb question, but how do they do a 4 point 4 way if they can't jump with anyone? Do all 3 have to be instructors? Odd.

Our AFF program is intended to essentially allow a jumper to safely do a 2-way with a coach (whether rated or just experienced with low time jumpers.) So right off AFF we often have jumpers jump with coaches or other experienced jumpers. Not sure what doing 10 solos will get you. I could see the point of doing a few, though, and definitely doing a low exit would be a good idea (if they went through AFF.)


SkySlut  (D License)

Jun 24, 2003, 4:51 PM
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Re: [billvon] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Typically, yes...the other 3 are instructors as well...at least here in Sebastian. I have seen a few 2 on 2, 2 FS1 candidates and 2 instructors/coaches. But that is usually how it goes. I dont agree with 10 consol jumps, but that is how they do it. It is a very structured program that they have over there. There doesnt seem to be too much flexability in it, for example...you wont see newbies that with 30 jumps and freefly friendly gear doing freefly solos or freeflying until they have shown that they have shown proficiency in RW skills. A good progression in theory, but not flexible for everyone.


gale  (B 5141)

Jun 24, 2003, 5:24 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

I find this coach discussion interesting.

We have a different way of thinking about caoches in Canada. For example, all you need is a B license (minimum 50 jumps) and you can take the coach 1 course.

Coach 1's of course can't do all that much. They can gear up students, and work with lower time jumpers. They basically help with skill development for lower time jumpers, although not students. I, for example, will be taking the coach 1 course in July. Obviously, this doesn't mean I can coach someone on how to go head down, or hook turn, but I can assist with basic skill development like loops, rolls, and the like.

Coach 1 is also a mandatory first rating if you want to be an instructor.

And coaching isn't just being able to do the skills, it's also knowing how to teach someone else how to do them. I can do the quickest, cleanest backloop in the world but if I can't explain to someone else how to do it, I'm not of any use to them. If you have hundreds of jumps and want to help up-jumpers, (which is really great) I think you should probably take the time to take the course. I don't think it's too much to ask, (obviously you should be able to pass it easily) and you may learn about how to coach people.

We also have coach 2 and coach 3 and they can do progressively more, with less experienced people.

I guess I like the idea that people at almost every level of the sport have something to give back to others. (But yes, taking the course is still a good idea.)

Gale


PurpleBadger

Jun 24, 2003, 5:46 PM
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Re: [SkySlut] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Once a student passes AFF in the UK, they can jump with other people, so long as they all have the FS1 qualification themselves. If you are having your 4 pt 4 way filmed then you don't need to have any instructors on it.

There is nothing to stop a newbie with 30 jumps doing a freefly solo, but they won't be able to do any freefly with anybody apart from an FF coach until they get the FF1 qualification (which yes does include most of the FS1 stuff)

it's not so flexible, but i'm not to sure who it would be holding back? it seems to develop skills that all people need in order to be safe in the sky with other people.

I thought that the USPA also had 10 consol jumps with the AFF program? can you explain the difference between this and the BPA system?

the link below shows a pretty diagram of how the BPA progression works once off student status:
http://www.bpa.org.uk/progression.htm (sorry bout it not being clickyBlush)

DISCLAIMER: first probably last time defending anything to do with BPA


SkySlut  (D License)

Jun 24, 2003, 5:47 PM
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Re: [gale] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

I am familiar with the CSPA program as well...its very thorough and I think that at some point the USPA will move towards a hybrid (basic coach/advanced coach) of what the CSPA has had for years and what the USPA has now. Or at least I hope so. The coach rating should set a solid foundation for teaching for everyone no matter wether they would like to do AFF or wether they want to sling meat all day doing tandems. Some roles are more involved than others but, they are all teaching and rating holders should posess the basic teaching skills that are learned in the coach course.


andy2

Jun 24, 2003, 5:50 PM
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Re: [PurpleBadger] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you are having your 4 pt 4 way filmed then you don't need to have any instructors on it.

Am I the only one that doesn't understand this statement? I thought the instructor/coach is on the dive for not only helping to debrief the student, but moreso for saftey issues. I.E. a low time jumper is not ready to jump with other low timers, thats why they jump with a coach.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Jun 24, 2003, 5:52 PM
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Re: [PurpleBadger] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Pardon my ignorance of the BPA system, but what's a "consol" jump?


PurpleBadger

Jun 24, 2003, 7:50 PM
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Re: [andy2] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

The person who is trying to complete the 4 point 4 way to gain their FS1 qualification will be jumping with three other experienced jumpers who already hold their FS1 qualification, and also have enough jumping ability to be able to easily complete a 4 point 4 way themselves, these people will be on the dive to fill in the slots. As such jumpers with this experience level will be also have enough experience to take safety considerations into account during the planning of the jump. Prior to this point the jumper should have completed a number of two way dives to develope RW skills neccesary for completing the 4 way successfully.

Consol jumps... Consolidation jumps, these are 10 solo jumps completed after the first 7 levels of AFF, I think the theory is for building up confidence and practicing the basic skills that have been learnt during the AFF course. The AFF 'graduation' is a hop'n'pop for 5k pulling within 5s of exit. Once all this has been compleated the person is BPA/FAI A Licence.


R00tj00se  (C 100697)

Jun 25, 2003, 1:41 AM
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Re: [quade] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

BPA AFF I believe involves 7 jumps (with 1 or 2 instructors depending upon which level), with a hop and pop, as previously stated from around 5,000ft. You may need to repeat this if you fail to deploy/exit/fall in a stable and controlled manner.
The BPA system also then involves 10 consolodation jumps. These are not just a way of getting money out of a student. A conscientous instructor will discuss with the student what they are going to do on their console jump as this is the time for them to practice what they learned on the 7 aff levels (e.g. barrel rolls, tracking, turns etc.) before they are thrown into the big, wide, world of skydiving with other people. So at this point the new skydiver has a minimum of 18 jumps.

Now, the newly qualified skydiver can jump with other people at the CCI's (think DZ owner and S&TA) discretion. Usually this will mean he/she can jump with one other person to build up their existing skills, sometimes 2 people depending on skill level of all involved. These people cannot teach the new skydiver anything new unless they are a BPA approved WARP coach. But they can and do pass on friendly advice.
When the new skydiver wishes to learn some FS skills they can pay a WARP (think scaled down SKY U) coach to teach them FS (e.g. turns in place, side slides, swoop to pin). Once a WARP coach thinks they have reached a sufficient level (I have seen this done in a minimum of 3 jumps with someone talented) they can then attempt a 4 point 4-way which will get them their FS1 and allow them to jump in bigger formations. The people on the qualifying dive are usually the WARP instructor and 2 experienced skydivers.
Once FS1 has been acchieved people usually then decide whether they wish to continue with 4-way stuff or go do FF (or do both).
Freeflying follows a similair structure to FS1. You can jump with one other person at the CCI's discretion while learning to FF as long as that other person has their FF1 (BPA head up flying qualification). To get your FF1 you need to demonstarte various skills to a coach and then take a qualifying dive which involves turns, transitions and forward and backwardds movement.

Disclaimer - I am not an instructor so the above may not be official BPA policy but it is what I have observed over 3 years.


julesUK  (D 100364)

Jun 25, 2003, 4:17 AM
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Re: [R00tj00se] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

things I did on my consols:

- converted to throwaway on the 6th
- started pulling at less than 5000'
- did intentionally unstable exits - this was not a problem!Wink
- practiced for the Cat 8 qualifying dive (not all UK DZs do this)
- just enjoyed falling without some instructor waving his arms at me

Looking back I think they were valuable jumps. The problem with the BPA system is that once you come off Student status unless you can find a SkydiveU/ WARP/ RW instructor able to jump with you regularly you end up doing a lot of frustrating solos.

The people who would do the RW coaching are often also the tandem instructors, the video fliers, the AFF instructors and these activities take commercial priority.

Jules


wrightskyguy  (D 19665)

Jun 25, 2003, 6:14 AM
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Re: [billvon] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

This has come up a lot, and I think that it's a shame if that's applied as a blanket rule. There is nothing in the BSR's that says you have to be a coach to jump with a new jumper; I would hope the S+TA would be flexible enough to let a qualified experienced jumper jump with a new jumper. It's how I learned most of what I learned about RW.


Good points, the program was designed to ensure that students fresh off of level VII/Cat E got the additional training necessary to safely complete the jumps and objectives for thier A license. If a student is focused and jumps under coach supervision, this can be accomplished in twenty jumps. Someone with an A license and 800 jumps probably does have something to contribute, but, the problem is that they haven't demonstrated the ability to teach, besides, it's not really fair to those that spent the money and took the time to get thier ratings to have an unrated person teaching. After the student gets thier A license though, it's a whole new ballgame.


SkySlut  (D License)

Jun 25, 2003, 7:37 AM
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Re: [PurpleBadger] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

The thing with the BPA system is that I am not sure that doing 10 consol jumps is entirely necessary, it maybe for some, but certainly not all...why not get into some coaching jumps if they are pretty heads up. In some cases, I believe that doing the 10 consol jumps is a waste of the students money when it can be spent on better things, but I do agree that it is good to get out and do a few solos, again some more than others. The naturals are the ones that I think are being held back with the 10 consols, plus its just more money.

USPA doesnt have consols or 10 solo jumps after AFF, we have a "20 jump program", the ISP, which has traditional AFF, coaching jumps, and 2 hop/n/pops until 20 jumps. This may take more than 20 jumps to finish however.

That is really the major difference between the BPA & USPA in regards to getting coaching that I see...in the US, you can get coaching immediately after finishing your level 7 (for those DZs that only use the traditional AFF program) to attain their A license or they can take their time and do 15 solos to get comfortable...its at each individuals pace although they are still considered a student until they get their A license, for good reason. Thats the cool thing about the ISP, its flexible, although it behooves a student with 50 jumps to get their ass in gear and get their A license...

For instance, I had just finished my AFF and it just so happened that Jack Jefferies was at my DZ coaching. I had 12 jumps and he started doing SDU drill dives with me...why is it that I shouldnt have had the opportunity to jump with him because I didnt do 10 solos??? If I didnt feel ready, I wouldnt have taken the opportunity (its not like I felt pressured by "who he was", because I had no clue) but I was ready so I went for it...I am very glad that I was able to have that opportunity. Never forget it.

That is what I mean by flexibility between the 2 programs.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 25, 2003, 9:11 AM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What's your opinion Bill, on an "A-only" licensed jumper with 800+/- jumps wanting to help out a 20-30 something jump wonder being regulatorilly <---(new word there?) DISALLOWED from doing this, because the new ISP says said "experienced" jumper "MUST" have his/her coaches rating?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I believe that anyone helping a junior jumper should have some form of coach or instructor rating.
How come the "wannabe coach" has 800 jumps, but no more ratings?
Clearly the "wannabe coach" has not reached his full potential. It is one thing to be able to perform a skill/maneuver on your own, but an entirely different matter to teach that skill to a junior jumper. Unless you have a background in teaching adults, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to get the message across gracefully to an adult.
Another advantage of coach certification courses run by CSPA, BPA, APF, Skydive U, etc. is that they teach new coaches proven methods for getting the message across to junior jumpers.

The only place where the old-school still works gracefully is load-organizing. After they have put in X number of years organizing intermediate jumpers, LOs have usually acquired the necessary skills by trial and error.

BPA has the right intention with asking junior jumpers to do 10 consolidation jumps after AFF, but it seems that the program is failing in practice. During the same stage, junior Canadian skydivers do 8 - 12 solo jumps - sometimes with a coach - to refine solo skills. Even if there is no coach on the load, a smart junior jumper with discuss a rough lesson plan for the dive with a coach or instructor, before boarding the airplane.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 25, 2003, 9:19 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

>How come the "wannabe coach" has 800 jumps, but no more ratings?

Perhaps he is simply a 4-way guy.

>Clearly the "wannabe coach" has not reached his full potential.

Well, if he can't factor a polynomial he hasn't reached his full potential either, but I think the issue here is - is he safe enough to jump with the newbie?

>It is one thing to be able to perform a skill/maneuver on your own,
> but an entirely different matter to teach that skill to a junior jumper.

I agree. Every jump a newbie makes as a student must be in a learning environment. Once they are off student status, then the jumps must simply be safe. There is no harm in jumping with another jumper who is an experienced 4-way team member. Even if all he does is fall straight down the pipe and provide a target for the newbie, that's a good learning experience. It may not be the carefully scripted, briefed and debriefed learning experience that a coach would provide, but there is more to skydiving than carefully scripted learning experiences. Sometimes, there's just plain skydiving.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 25, 2003, 11:08 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I believe that anyone helping a junior jumper should have some form of coach or instructor rating.
How come the "wannabe coach" has 800 jumps, but no more ratings?

Here's the problem with your statement Rob, and therefore the basis of your entire "argument" (not that we are "arguing" Wink)...

This "wannabe coach" does NOT really "wannabe" ANYTHING (necessarily "rated"), and why does he "HAVE TO BE"? Sometimes, friends with 23 jumps or what-have-you are standing around the dropzone looking for help. Maybe this 800 jump jumper just wants to be able to give it to him. Skydiving is a HOBBY and an escape for this jumper. He/she may very well be very qualified (and a damn good teacher too, I might add Wink), but simply has absolutely zero interest in ever making skydiving "work" or more precisely: a job.

Why shouldn't this jumper be ALLOWED to jump with the low timer and impart some of his/her clearly otherwise earned experience?

I think Bill has answered this and in actuality, his point HAS indeed been implimented in practice (local S&TA has no problem with it). Just thought it might be worth a little debate/more generalized thought & consideration in here (mission accomplished in that regard) is all. Cool

Blue Skies,
-Grant


kallend  (D 23151)

Jun 25, 2003, 11:18 AM
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Re: [andy2] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you are having your 4 pt 4 way filmed then you don't need to have any instructors on it.

Am I the only one that doesn't understand this statement? I thought the instructor/coach is on the dive for not only helping to debrief the student, but moreso for saftey issues. I.E. a low time jumper is not ready to jump with other low timers, thats why they jump with a coach.

Most of the coaches I know ARE low time jumpers.


SkySlut  (D License)

Jun 25, 2003, 11:31 AM
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Re: [billvon] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree, but I think that there are and should be two distinctions between paying for a coach and getting some sort of "formal" education (insert your meaning here) and doing a fun jump and perhaps learning something from it from someone who is entirely safe (800 jump A license holder). I believe that they are separate things. I know plenty of 800 jump A license holders that cant fall straight down the tube.

Question: A student goes to a non-USPA DZ which practices harness hold (potentially having a JM teaching who has no ratings or qualifications other than 800 jumps/4-way all the time/good guy)...would that be equal to or safer than a student that goes to a USPA affiliated DZ that has strict requirements on qualifications and ratings of JMs/Is for their AFF program??? Just playing devils advocate.Angelic


R00tj00se  (C 100697)

Jun 25, 2003, 12:33 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Skydiving is a HOBBY and an escape for this jumper.

Amen to that. Sometimes it seems if you aren't on a team or you haven't got a dive plan or your not working towards a rating then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. The only thing I ever want to do is coach freeflying and that is years off. I don't want to teach students or take tandems on MY weekends. It's my money, my time, my choice. Smile
However, if that's what floats your boat then go for it...


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 25, 2003, 12:44 PM
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Re: [SkySlut] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Question: A student goes to a non-USPA DZ which practices harness hold (potentially having a JM teaching who has no ratings or qualifications other than 800 jumps/4-way all the time/good guy)...would that be equal to or safer than a student that goes to a USPA affiliated DZ that has strict requirements on qualifications and ratings of JMs/Is for their AFF program??? Just playing devils advocate.

To stay within context (where did AFF JM/I enter the coaches arena debate?) -if in comparison to going to some 100 jump "qualified" simply by the virtue of holding their B-License and a "coaches rating"? Then YES, it is my contention that jumper is better off with the entirely "non-rated" 800 jump veteran. Absolutely.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 25, 2003, 12:50 PM
Post #23 of 72 (2058 views)
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Re: [SkySlut] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I know plenty of 800 jump A license holders that cant fall straight down the tube.

I have also seen plenty of "D" license holders who can't jump for jack-sh.... too! You have just made MY point exactly! ...License holding JUST for the virute of license holding doesn't (in some cases in of itself) mean SQUAT!


SkySlut  (D License)

Jun 25, 2003, 2:26 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Just making a point that a 800 jump person may or may not be qualified to provide quality service to a student...that is if that student is paying for coaching. If they are going up for a fun jump then, by all means have at it. I was making a comparison between coaches that have gone through formal training to do what they do...as do AFF instructors for USPA affiliated DZs. There is a certain standard that comes with getting a rating. Ratings and licenses are two very different things. What I am getting at is you get what you pay for. That is what I was getting at. Sure you can go to a non-uspa rated dz and have someone with 200 jumps doing your AFF class without ever have taken an AFF cert course or any coaching training at all for that matter...yeah, you may learn how to save your life, but is that the quality that you would expect at a skydiving operation??? Sure you can grab anyone at the dz and do a coach jump, but if they havent been trained...what kind of quality are you going to recieve?

Anyways, for the most part...wether it is a crappy instructor or coach, if a student is paying for education and they arent happy with what they are recieving then they can usually figure this out over time and they will move on to a better coach or instructor. It all sorts itself out in the end. If you are a weekend warrior and want to coach for fun, then fine, but if youo are dedicated to the craft that you are honing then I would think that one would want to learn about improving their teaching methods. Never stop learning no matter how many jumps, licenses, or ratings you have...or lack thereof.Smile


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jun 25, 2003, 2:38 PM
Post #25 of 72 (2016 views)
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Re: [SkySlut] Low time coaches (was: Elsinore injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
...wether it is a crappy instructor or coach, if a student is paying for education and they arent happy with what they are recieving then they can usually figure this out over time and they will move on to a better coach or instructor.

And you call THIS getting what you have paid for?
Yet again you have made precisely MY point! Wink


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