Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
PC over the leading edge, actions?

 


w4p2  (Student)

Jun 24, 2003, 2:05 AM
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PC over the leading edge, actions? Can't Post

 What is your opinion on a situation where 280 f2
Manta loaded to .9 has a PC over the leading edge,
while being piloted by student.

Canopy flies ok and and turns and flares well at high altitude, but what are the dangers and potential problems when flying such canopy in to the landing.

No chop situation but....?

How common this situation is or should be with spring assisted PC launch?

Cheers: JL


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 24, 2003, 2:34 AM
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Nevertheles it looks strange, but its normal. Thats not a malfunction. It can happen.

Safe landings.


grega  (D 100020)

Jun 24, 2003, 2:52 AM
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it happens 2 maybe 3 times a year at our school. it's not really to worry about. canopy reacts normaly and is controlable, and lands normaly. well at least it's not a problem with wingloadings 0.8 or less. i can't say about wingloadings for more than 0.8...

the problem would be if you'd have a longer bridle and pilot chute would wrap itself around A and B lines and tighten them...


darkwing  (D 4164)

Jun 24, 2003, 4:56 AM
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Avoid hard turns, which will speed things up and increase the drag on the PC....


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jun 24, 2003, 7:33 AM
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Re: [w4p2] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

If your canopy is stable, steerable, and flarable, I'd land it.

If it's not stable, steerable, or flarable, I'd chop it.

I would make sure to practice a few deep flares and stalls just to make sure that nothing odd happens.

_Am


Genn  (D 22590)

Jun 24, 2003, 8:05 AM
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The same thing happened to me during AFF. It didn't effect my canopies performance so I landed it.

However, I do know others that chopped.


FliegendeWolf  (A 44953)

Jun 24, 2003, 8:13 AM
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Re: [w4p2] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

This actually appeared in one of the photographs used for harness training at my dz. I was trained to do a controlability check, and if it passed it was fine, but not to do anything radical that might upset it.


alain  (C 97601)

Jun 24, 2003, 8:49 AM
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I know someone who was badly injured in such a configuration but at higher WL (above 1.6, I could not say exactly). the canopy kinda collapsed during the flare.
I've never experienced it but my guess is that under a high speed canopy, this is something to consider as a malfunction.
now, i'm not a big canopy guru, and i'll let them talk...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 24, 2003, 9:05 AM
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We had this happen perhaps 20 times while I was working at Brown. Only once did it cause a problem, and that was due to turbulence collapsing the canopy. When it reinflated the PC had "bow-tied" the canopy.


w4p2  (Student)

Jun 24, 2003, 3:31 PM
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Re: [billvon] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

 20 times during a career at given DZ, fine. But what do you say about it happening in one out of three or four jumps.

An instructor that I know, told that this is what happened to her, and it is not a big deal. So be it, but ocuring on a student rig, the frequency got me rather concerned.

In addition to above, it appears the line twists on the mentioned student rigs are rather a rule than an exception even in stable / good SL exits.

Are the two above mentioned situations indications of a canopy getting out of shape, extensive wear on the rig, or is it just everyday blues with student gear.

Cheers: JL


rainman  (D License)

Jun 25, 2003, 1:51 AM
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Re: [w4p2] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had the exact same thing happen to me at about 20 jumps. It was a long spot and I was *very* thorough in my controllability check because the springloaded pilot caused a slight turn, so I had to land out, no problems.

I never got a satisfactory explanation as to what might cause this, other than 'it happens.'

Pure speculation here, but maybe the greater forward (and downward) speed on non-student equipment prevents this rare phenomenon?

Blue skies,


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 25, 2003, 2:18 AM
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Re: [rainman] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jeje, because with those gears we arent using spring loaded PC nowadays :).

Safe landings.


lippy  (D 30348)

Jun 25, 2003, 11:52 AM
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At the DZ I learned at they use ripcord deployed mains for FF and S/L.

As far as line twists on S/L go, I don't think I've done a jump without them, including jumps as a dummy student long after I was off the dope rope.

As well, in the 90 some jumps I put on Mantas before I could afford my own rig, I've seen a spring-loaded PC over the nose many times. Never caused me a problem, other than being a little strange to look at.


skytash  (D 100388)

Jun 26, 2003, 3:14 AM
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Re: [w4p2] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the important thing is whether it is controllable. This happened to me on my 14th jump and when I did a practive flare, the PC inflated and bow-tied my canopy. I decided to get off it.

The thing I am confused about is that I was never told about the possibility that it could happen. If it happens relatively frequently do any instructors out there tell their students about it? I was surprised by it and went back to the principle 'If it is not big, square and controllable, get off it'. I decided it was not controllable and cut-away.

If it has a tendency to happen shouldn't it be included in the same category as twists, ie not necessarily a malfunction but something to be aware of and know what to do about?

tash


Genn  (D 22590)

Jun 26, 2003, 3:48 AM
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Re: [skytash] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tash. I totally agree.
I think it should be taught. When I was a student and it happened to me, I looked up and it looked weird, but my '4 Ss' were in tact. I used my own judgment but I would have preferred knowing about it before I experienced it.


eWave  (D License)

Jun 26, 2003, 6:28 AM
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Re: [Genn] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Been there, done that (twice) with no problemos. Canopy was Navigator 220 with spring pilot chute.


WayneRATS  (B 103816)

Jun 26, 2003, 7:57 AM
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Re: [eWave] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

260 pd with spring pilot chutre here.. it's a bit of a bugger coz i don't like to chuck it about but it's happened twice.. it kind of puts a dent into the jump Frown i really enjoy the canopy ride.. is there any particular sequence of events that leads to this happening?


Clownburner  (B 26842)

Jun 26, 2003, 10:29 AM
Post #18 of 20 (830 views)
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Re: [Genn] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is taught, at least now. My AFF FJC covered it, and the synopsis was "Don't panic, if it's there, square, and steerable you're fine; if it's not, cut it away and pull silver."

Simple enough, but I could see how that might be disturbing if you'd never seen it before.


skeptik  (C 177425)

Jun 26, 2003, 11:43 AM
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Re: [w4p2] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Same situation was in the may'2003 at one of russian DZ's. Canopy Falcon (I'm not sure about size, but it was more than 200 sq.ft.) with spring pilot chute. After opening canopy has PC over the leading edge. It was stable. Pilot checked stearability of canopy and decide not cut away. While pilot pulling steering lines down for landing, PC collapsed main canopy to a 'butterfly' and falling down. Result compression fracture of backbone. Pirate

Therefore in this situation is important to check canopy for flaring, and if you see the tendency for collapse main, then or chop it, or land it without flaring if your wingloading permit it.

Sorry for my english... Tongue


w4p2  (Student)

Jun 26, 2003, 4:03 PM
Post #20 of 20 (796 views)
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Re: [skeptik] PC over the leading edge, actions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Very valuable information. Tx.

What is the likelihood of the situation developing
into bow tie or similar at low altitudes / under the hard deck. That is the thing that makes me wonder.

Despite of my diminutive experience I have tried to think the situation over and over and only solution that I have come up with is reserve deployment without chop. (Jumping round reserve).

Scary crap. I would actually prefer to jump high and do my own throw outs, but unfortunately AFF is not available in my nick of neighborhood.

For me altitude equals safety. This brings me to an other question that I have been wondering about. The point of making the freefalls in s/l training from low altitudes.... I will open a new thread on it on this forum.

Once more, ty, your comments are highly appreciated.

Cheers: JL



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