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For those against wingload BSRs

 

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Poll: For those against wingload BSRs
I've taken a canopy control class 27 / 10%
I've spoken to someone about their wingloading without being asked 43 / 17%
I would help teach a canopy control class 24 / 9%
I really don't think there's a problem 8 / 3%
I am an active instructor, coach or jumpmaster 23 / 9%
I have a good friend who has injured themselves seriously or been killed under a good canopy 51 / 20%
It's impossible to draw conclusions from such a small sample 22 / 8%
I would take a canopy control class to help make it cool, even if I didn't desperately need it 41 / 16%
I believe in natural selection when it comes to young skydivers(in honor of whoever it was that said that) 21 / 8%
260 total votes
 
Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 19, 2003, 9:03 PM
Post #1 of 74 (1976 views)
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For those against wingload BSRs Can't Post

If you've read the other thread, you probably know that I'm in favor of a BSR, or something that makes it a little harder for someone to buy more canopy than they can handle.

I'm trying to get a handle on stuff that can be quantified, and I realize that from where I sit (a lotta years in the sport, plenty of stupid things done, managed to survive them all) I can no longer understand what it's like to be really young and aggressive in skydiving.

I tried to leave anything really inflammatory out (well, except for that last one -- I am human, after all).

So I guess what I'm trying to do is to figure out if there is a path to fewer fatalities and life-altering injuries that might actually happen, or if really folks are just hoping that enough objections will make the issue go away.

Experience does matter, particularly to those who aren't above average (and we're not all above average). Even to those who are, mistakes happen, and it's best if you can practice them on someone else's body. It's kind of like taking motorcycle lessons on someone else's small, lightweight, not-too-powerful bike.

Wendy W.


lawrocket  (Student)

Jun 19, 2003, 9:18 PM
Post #2 of 74 (1945 views)
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Re: [wmw999] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

Wendy:

Take it from a newbie who is fully cognizant of the risk. I have only recently discovered how much fun that PD Nav260 can be. THose things can really move. It's scary how much fun I've had on that canopy in a couple of my recent jumps. That's right. I've scared myself with a 260.

I have been thinking about downsizing to a 240. I've thought about it the last 5 jumps. But, boy, I sure am learning a lot on that docile 260. The 260 is more than enough for me to handle these next few (dozen?) jumps! A couple of my instructors seem to think I'm doing all right on it, but I don't.

I think that letting a person jump a napkin without a few hundred jumps is like giving keys to a Ferrari and a liquor cabinet to a couple of 16 year old boys. They may be just fine with that responsibility.

But in reality, doesn't it sound ridiculous?




p.s. Thank you to all you canopy Nazis. Keep it up! Your words sank in with this newbie.


MrHixxx  (D 24144)

Jun 19, 2003, 9:45 PM
Post #3 of 74 (1932 views)
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Re: [wmw999] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't support a BSR per se, but a high performance rating (akin to a PRO) might be a way to get people in the classroom on the issue with an annual demonstration of skills. The missing link is training in most cases, so why not make it mandantory. This way you don't limit the "above average" crowd, but it covers everybody else. Then there is a progression to learn a smaller canopy and not so much of silent dare. Joe Schmo doesn't go out and get a canopy over the internet, hooks it up, jumps it and slams in immulating something he saw, but never openly asked a question about how to execute.

Even with a BSR, but no training, people will accumulate their 1000 jumps to get said postage stamp and slam in thinking it is an entitlement rather than a learning step. The sport doesn't exclusively discriminate on low jump numbers. I look around my dropzone and see people with lower jump numbers than I with better judgement and higher jump numbers with worse judgement and most of it is centered around humility and a desire to learn. The most admirable figures in our sport are still learning after 10,000 jumps and openly admit it and are willing to discuss technique and safety with the same zeal a first jump student.

-Hixxx aka mailman w/ library card


poohbeer  (Student)

Jun 20, 2003, 1:53 AM
Post #4 of 74 (1885 views)
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Re: [MrHixxx] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't support a BSR per se, but a high performance rating (akin to a PRO) might be a way to get people in the classroom on the issue with an annual demonstration of skills. The missing link is training in most cases, so why not make it mandantory.

And adding again to the already pretty high costs to start and keep jumping. Once you have to follow classes so you cannot learn from your buddies the price goes up. And most often, WAY UP.
I've just paid 1000+ euros for my AFF, unfortonalty I will have to have another go at this caus I'm not that good: another 1000 euros. Then offcourse gearrental and after that buying my own gear again thousands of euros I'll have to find somewhere. Now you want me to take some more classes also?! Adding again at least several hundred euro's or more?


(This post was edited by poohbeer on Jun 20, 2003, 1:56 AM)


MrHixxx  (D 24144)

Jun 20, 2003, 3:43 AM
Post #5 of 74 (1862 views)
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Re: [poohbeer] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I guess you could always go price out femur and pelvis surgery and do a cost comparison...

Hixxx


SkydiveMonkey  (B 102345)

Jun 20, 2003, 3:46 AM
Post #6 of 74 (1860 views)
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Re: [wmw999] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

My friend shattered his tib and fib last year on a canopy that wasn't at 1:1. BSR's wouldn't work in all cases. Smile


skydiven4fun  (D 25506)

Jun 20, 2003, 3:51 AM
Post #7 of 74 (1859 views)
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Re: [wmw999] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that thats going to be a tuff nut to crack, Even if there were rules set in place to prevent the purchase of high performance equipment by less than qualified jumpers, There will always be ways around it. and not every drop zone you go to is going to enforce the rules, Some drop zones just don't pay that much attention to what people are jumping.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 20, 2003, 5:15 AM
Post #8 of 74 (1843 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMonkey] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My friend shattered his tib and fib last year on a canopy that wasn't at 1:1. BSR's wouldn't work in all cases

They wouldn't do much for people who hurt themselves doing PLFs, either. You can hurt yourself doing this; that's part of the attraction for a lot of folks, and there's nothing wrong with that.

The learning curve for high-load high-performance canopy landing is very high, enough so to surprise a number of people in a deadly way. It's high enough that low-load low-performance canopy landings can be dangerous. Right now there is no mandatory training.

And yes, mandatory training before jumping a high-performance canopy would be fine. That's part of the proposed BSR -- you get around the jump minimums as soon as you take some training.

Wendy W.


Blahr

Jun 20, 2003, 5:16 AM
Post #9 of 74 (1842 views)
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Re: [poohbeer] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't support a BSR per se, but a high performance rating (akin to a PRO) might be a way to get people in the classroom on the issue with an annual demonstration of skills. The missing link is training in most cases, so why not make it mandantory.

And adding again to the already pretty high costs to start and keep jumping. Once you have to follow classes so you cannot learn from your buddies the price goes up. And most often, WAY UP.
I've just paid 1000+ euros for my AFF, unfortonalty I will have to have another go at this caus I'm not that good: another 1000 euros. Then offcourse gearrental and after that buying my own gear again thousands of euros I'll have to find somewhere. Now you want me to take some more classes also?! Adding again at least several hundred euro's or more?

Better a few thousand more euro's than being a smudge on the ground


andy2

Jun 20, 2003, 6:37 AM
Post #10 of 74 (1805 views)
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Re: [wmw999] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

you didn't make an option "I want to take a canopy control class as soon as possible".


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 20, 2003, 8:23 AM
Post #11 of 74 (1758 views)
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Re: [poohbeer] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

> Now you want me to take some more classes also?! Adding again at
>least several hundred euro's or more?

No. If you don't want to take the class you don't have to - you just can't jump very high wing loadings until you get more jumps. Since you also don't have to buy a new canopy to stay at a low wingloading, there is a very cheap alternative - do nothing.

I am constantly amazed that, often, the people who bitch most about a $100 canopy control class are the same ones plunking down $1600 for a Xaos 89. If the money's a problem, one can simply stick with the larger canopy until they learn to fly it.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Jun 20, 2003, 8:56 AM
Post #12 of 74 (1748 views)
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Re: [andy2] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you didn't make an option "I want to take a canopy control class as soon as possible".

I chose not to vote in this poll because of this sort of under sight. I feel this poll is very bias based on the opinions of the author. Besides, do we need yet another topic to talk about the same thing time and time again?

[waiting to be flamed]How many Wingloading BSR topics do we need folks?[/waiting to be flamed]


(This post was edited by CanuckInUSA on Jun 20, 2003, 9:01 AM)


rigging65  (D 21921)

Jun 20, 2003, 8:58 AM
Post #13 of 74 (1745 views)
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Re: [billvon] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
$1600 for a Xaos 89

Were is the general population finding Xaos' for $1600???...try $2000! And you're right...it's the ones who bitch about a dime, then go and burn a dollar.

Folks, skydiving is EXPENSIVE...sorry, but it is. But, if you spend your money on training first, you'll be able to fly your "cool guy" gear for years to come...or you can fly your "cool guy" gear now, and spend the money you would have spent on training on physical rehab...your choice.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 20, 2003, 9:05 AM
Post #14 of 74 (1734 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[waiting to be flamed]How many Wingloading BSR topics do we need folks?[/waiting to be flamed]
We haven't matched the number of war threads in TB. We haven't even approached the number of RSL/AAD debate threads yet.

It's a timely topic. There will probably be more threads discussing it. Such is the nature of an internet forum...


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 20, 2003, 9:13 AM
Post #15 of 74 (1730 views)
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Re: [andy2] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you didn't make an option "I want to take a canopy control class as soon as possible".
Wanting is not an action. I want a Ferrari. To actually get a Ferrari I would have to take some action - like get a good job and save my money.

Wanting to take a canopy control class proves nothing.


QuickDraw  (C License)

Jun 20, 2003, 9:30 AM
Post #16 of 74 (1723 views)
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Re: [wmw999] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

Wendy, as a beginner and relatively new to the sport, I think (and always have really) that this is the way to go.
The first steps anyone takes with unfamiliar equipment is always risky, and I was on this site swatting even before I got into the air.
I remember clearly in the skydivers handbook, a paragraph which stated that 49 percent of all fatalities/serious injuries were under a good canopy.
I don't think anyone could argue that regulation is a bad thing (I think it keeps the sport healthy),
there is nothing wrong with pushing the envelope either, but it has to be within a pilots capacity & level of experience.

As for the poll, when I last looked, there was a spike next to the "do you know anyone who has been killed/injured" option.

I think that speaks volumes. Unsure


kallend  (D 23151)

Jun 20, 2003, 9:49 AM
Post #17 of 74 (1704 views)
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Re: [wmw999] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

 


The solution is to make a real, serious study of the problem and fix it's primary cause, and not just assume it is wing loading and jump numbers that are to blame. Applying the wrong fix may be worse than no fix at all.


skydive84  (C 103395)

Jun 20, 2003, 9:54 AM
Post #18 of 74 (1699 views)
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Re: [wmw999] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

Wendy
Im really new to the sport. But in the last 7 months ive clocked 250 jumps. Ive down sized to a spectre 135 loading at about 1.45. I love this canopy. I learn something new pretty much every jump + feel im constantly advancing. The canopy doesnt scare the shit out of me so im not afraid to play + knock it about some but im also very careful. This canopy would be totally unsuitable for a guy who has the same number of jumps but over say 5 years.
To date i havnt had the chance to attend a canopy control class - theres always been other stuff ive needed more. (Going to icarus extreme coaching seminar next week) I think that if some kind of BSR was bought in i wouldnt have a chance in hell of getting under my canopy. I know i would learn under a lighter canopy but i think im learning more under this because its keeping me sharp. The way i look at it is im paying for the whole skydive - i can choose what i do at the top end (increase risks by jumping with more people, a surf board etc) and i should be able to choose what i do with the bottom end (obviously with others safety in mind). Its my risk and if anyone wanted me to sign an extra waiver to say this id be happy to do so.
Education not restriction is the way forward
Adi Crazy


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 20, 2003, 10:02 AM
Post #19 of 74 (1683 views)
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Re: [skydive84] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
To date i havnt had the chance to attend a canopy control class - theres always been other stuff ive needed more. (Going to icarus extreme coaching seminar next week)
Quote:
Education not restriction is the way forward

You just said that you haven't taken the education because it wasn't convenient. All a BSR, or even strongly-worded set of guidelines, would do would be to rearrange the priorities if you chose to go with a high performance canopy. That's all. You still get to jump it, you still get to buy it, you just have to prioritize canopy education ahead of jumping the new canopy.

Pilots get checked out in new airplane types.

Wendy W.


poohbeer  (Student)

Jun 20, 2003, 10:03 AM
Post #20 of 74 (1680 views)
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Re: [MrHixxx] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, I guess you could always go price out femur and pelvis surgery and do a cost comparison...

No, cause if people don't do stupid and listen there's no need for that.
Ok, I might get unlucky and break something, but it sure as hell is NOT gonna be because of wingloading!
People that are not willing to take that risk can always go out and take lessons to test that. No need to obligate me to do the same. In the end, it's all your own responsibility!!


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 20, 2003, 10:08 AM
Post #21 of 74 (1675 views)
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Re: [skydive84] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To date i havnt had the chance to attend a canopy control class - theres always been other stuff ive needed more. (Going to icarus extreme coaching seminar next week) I think that if some kind of BSR was bought in i wouldnt have a chance in hell of getting under my canopy. I know i would learn under a lighter canopy but i think im learning more under this because its keeping me sharp.
You could very easily have gotten under the canopy you're flying now - an option to "test out" or take classes if you want to downsize faster is part of what is being proposed. You would have had to make it a priority though - if going fast is that important to you why haven't you made it a priority long before now?

As to learning more under a 1.45 wingloading than you would at a lower wingloading... please ask Clint and JC their opinion on that and report back to us after you take the class next week.

In reply to:
Education not restriction is the way forward
Regulation for those who choose not to seek education, at least until they reach the D license level (soon to be 500 jumps in the US), is in essence what is being proposed.


Zenister  (A 42)

Jun 20, 2003, 10:12 AM
Post #22 of 74 (1672 views)
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Re: [wmw999] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

well since its another thread i'll switch tacks..

I'm all for a BSR that encourages canopy control classes. One that offers guidelines for ST&A's & DZOs to use in determining if the jumpers under their supervision are flying within acceptable risk levels..however the final determination of who can and should fly what canopy should be made on the ground, by the people who are enabling you to get in the air in the first place, not by an overreaching authority that never sees any individual jumper.

if the jumpers on your DZ are so unsafe why arent they being talked to and/or grounded? unless the incident is the result of an obvious mistake and mistakes happen to everyone shouldnt it be pretty obvious who is landing safely and who is a potential meat bomb? there must be a pattern of behavior that is being ignored for this "trend" to have started in the first place...

all i see so far is alot of relatively arbitrary jump numbers & WL restrictions, where are the "test out" portions of this proposal?? What skills should a jumper be able to demonstrate before being signed off into the holy mantel of "skydiving adult" (otherwise bestowed at 500 jumps) per this BSR?


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 20, 2003, 10:13 AM
Post #23 of 74 (1668 views)
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Re: [Zenister] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
where are the "test out" portions of this proposal??
Did you read Derek's (hooknswoop) proposal???


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Jun 20, 2003, 10:13 AM
Post #24 of 74 (1668 views)
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Re: [poohbeer] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

You are in the same air as me. You may or may not be able to handle your canopy. You could take me out from behind and kill me. That will suck when I can't talk to more people about aircraft safety. See why I'm interested in this?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 20, 2003, 10:18 AM
Post #25 of 74 (1661 views)
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Re: [skydive84] For those against wingload BSRs [In reply to] Can't Post

>To date i havnt had the chance to attend a canopy control class -
>theres always been other stuff ive needed more.

And thus the reason we need it to be a rule.

> I think that if some kind of BSR was bought in i wouldnt have a
> chance in hell of getting under my canopy.

Why? For one, you'd be grandfathered. Two, if you are as good as you say you are, the canopy control class would be a breeze. And if you discover you're not - it may well save your life.

>Education not restriction is the way forward

I agree, and any proposal that got the people who need it education, I'd be all for. But you could afford a Spectre 135, and not a canopy control class. Many people can afford AAD's, but not $100 for a canopy control class. With the priority peole put on education (which is approximately zero right now) how do you propose to implement your way forward?


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