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no reserve pull after cutaway ?

 

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alain  (C 97601)

Jun 19, 2003, 2:27 PM
Post #1 of 51 (6437 views)
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no reserve pull after cutaway ? Can't Post

following the endless debate about rsl, i'm wondering which kind of jumpers did not go for the silver after a cutaway: newbies, intermediate, experienced, knocked off jumpers during cutaway, ... ???
just trying to analyse some facts...


chuteless  (D 41)

Jun 19, 2003, 3:45 PM
Post #2 of 51 (6368 views)
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Re: [alain] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew a jumper very well, and cant explain why he cutaway a perfect Para Commander and didnt bother to get his reserve out. I have also heard that it happened one other time. I knew a woman who didnt bother to use her reserve or cutaway from a bad main. There is all kinds, but I think the less experience a jumper has, the less likely he/she is to condition his/her mind to handle a problem they "hope" they never have to face. BILL COLE


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 19, 2003, 4:03 PM
Post #3 of 51 (6345 views)
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Re: [alain] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

> i'm wondering which kind of jumpers did not go for the silver after a cutaway:

From the skydiving fatalities site:

- a jumper with borrowed gear, no RSL or AAD; 100 jumps

- a jumper who did go for silver but waited too long after the cutaway; 160 jumps. Had an AAD but it fired too low.

- a jumper in Oklahoma cut away at around 400 feet and did not pull the reserve. No info on jump #'s.

- a jumper cut away after an RW jump and never opened the reserve. 550 jumps. No AAD/RSL.

- A skysurfer cut away at around 3000 feet, no reserve pull. He had 500+ jumps.

- a student on her first jump was told to cut away as a result of a mal. She did not open her reserve. No AAD/RSL.


dterrick  (B 5079)

Jun 19, 2003, 4:18 PM
Post #4 of 51 (6335 views)
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Re: [chuteless] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is all kinds, but I think the less experience a jumper has, the less likely he/she is to condition his/her mind to handle a problem they "hope" they never have to face. BILL COLE

Back to the chop chop stories, I made my Beer cutaway as a student on jump #20. Reserve procedures were still firmly being drilled into me by my jumpmasters. I think having a mal that early on was the BEST thing that could have happened to me because it proved:

1 - that it CAN happen to me (and did)
2. - that I CAN (and did) act accordingly.

I'd like to have a tersh rig available to me with a 'disposable' eliptical main so I could experience a spinning mal at altitude to prepare me for the day when it will happen for real. Short of that I can only go by your 'get rid of it NOW' words.

I believe that some people become complacent when they feel immune to the risks - ie: "nobody around her has had a horseshoe mal so why should I think about what to do?" (I did on #141, and that opened a few eyes around the DZ because it had not 'ever' happened. Now people consider this mal and we've had one other since).

Emergency precedures have ALWAYS been a part of my inflight mental briefing and I'm glad and proud to say that. I'm not perfect, nor infallable. Having a forum like this where safety can be discussed and learned from is invaluable.

Dave


PhillyKev

Jun 19, 2003, 4:23 PM
Post #5 of 51 (6329 views)
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Re: [alain] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was looking through a 1981 Parachutist the other day. And off the top of my head, the statistics were close to 42 deaths in 1980, 70% of which were no pull, low pull, or cutaway and no pull..

Don't know what that's supposed to prove, but it sure is different than today.


(This post was edited by PhillyKev on Jun 19, 2003, 4:24 PM)


fergs  (F 383)

Jun 19, 2003, 11:40 PM
Post #6 of 51 (6256 views)
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Re: [alain] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have watched two jumpers go in with no reserve pull.

The first had a few hundred jumps relatively minor malfunction, cutaway, no attempt to pull reserve, stable face to earth to impact.

The second had over 2000 jumps and just returning to the sport. Borrowed gear unfamiliar (but had jumped it a few times the previous day) pulled cutaway handle first, main pilot chute second (think about what happens next main deploys but is already cutaway so jumper continues on in freefall) did nothing more, simply stable face to earth til impact.

So do not be complacent and believe it can only happen to inexperienced jumpers. No one is immune.

Jump safe and pull something before impact!!

fergbird


Ron

Jun 20, 2003, 4:35 AM
Post #7 of 51 (6216 views)
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Re: [alain] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

2 cases come to mind.

A guy with 1,000 jumps who is very current, and on a 4 way team. Had his cutaway accidently come out. He tracked away pulled his main, which left the second it was out. He fell the 2,000 feet to impact stable. Why? Well he did'nt have what most think of as a mal...It was not above him all screwed up. He threw his main..where was it? He was confused, and now dead.

A guy with over 5,000 jumps, and several cutaways (including Tandem) had an AAD save him...Why? He waited for his RSL to pull FOR HIM after a cutaway... problem was...It was not hooked up.

Everyone thinks they can handle it when the shit hits the fan....But some just don't...They freak out.

I think you should have one until you have had a mal, and pulled both handles.

Ron


chuteless  (D 41)

Jun 20, 2003, 5:28 AM
Post #8 of 51 (6203 views)
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Re: [chuteless] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alain: As you know many people get depressed and keep it within themselves. Others have serious problems and keep that to themselves as well. They may feel that if their problems were made public, they would hurt so much more. When a person gets a mindset to commit suicide, they sometimes would rather die doing theone thing they loved most. Most dont want a messy thing like shooting themselves, because sometimes they dont do it well, and they are afraid of suffering...even a little bit. Thundering into the earth at top speed makes it a sure, quick, death with no suffering. Its over VERY quickly. When it happens, they know at the funeral people will say " he died doing the thing he loved most" and they feel this to be an admirable trait.
I knew a pilot, a good friend, who did the same thing. He got up on Sunday morning and moped around the house, something that was unusual for him. His wife finally asked him whats wrong. He replied " I think this is going to be the last air show I'll do,...I've had enough of it". She told him, "fine, its your decision, and thats okay if thats what you want."
He went to the airshow, and flew his T-6. Performing a loop, he came out of it...and straight into the ground. It really was his final sow.
His wife found my business card in his wallet and called me a few weeks later.
It is felt, that he was suffering from incurable cancer. He didnt want to suffer any more, and so ended everything, providing his wife with immediate insurance, and himself freedom from suffering. Jumpers are no different. I know of at least three jumpers who committed suicide.
Now I'll wipe the tears from my eyes and leave it at that. YES, I still hurt after all those years...Dean Ortner of Wakemen, Ohio, was a wonderful man...and I miss him still., Bill Cole D-41


rigging65  (D 21921)

Jun 20, 2003, 8:51 AM
Post #9 of 51 (6157 views)
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Re: [alain] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

The fact is less why it happens (as there are simply waaay too many reasons to try and stop them) but to understand that cutaway, low or no pull incidents do happen. It would be nice to think that we can prevent a lot of these issues, but some of them are still going to happen! Unsure

This is the biggest reason why many pro-rsl people feel the way they do. You can't always avoid the problems, you might not even see them coming, but a passive back-up device can save you butt!


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 20, 2003, 8:59 AM
Post #10 of 51 (6152 views)
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Re: [alain] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good friend of mine. 1500-ish jumps, camera flier. Spinning mal on the main, cutaway, didn't pull the reserve. No RSL, no AAD.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 20, 2003, 11:16 AM
Post #11 of 51 (6121 views)
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Re: [skybytch] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are numerous explanations, but three come to mind.
First, buddy brain locked. Too many scary things were happening on the skydive, so he tried to slow things down to a speed that he could handle. Unfortunately, the ground was still rushing up at him at 120 mph!
Secondly, buddy decided that he did not want to deploy his tiny reserve while unstable, so he waited until he was stable before pulling his reserve ripcord. Unfortunately, that nasty planet was still rushing up at him at 120 mph. This is the strongest argument for waring an RSL.
If you worry about an unstable opening causing your reserve to malfunction, you are wearing the wrong size of reserve!
Third scenario, buddy brain-locked.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Jun 20, 2003, 12:46 PM
Post #12 of 51 (6095 views)
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Re: [fergs] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

 Borrowed gear unfamiliar (but had jumped it a few times the previous day) pulled cutaway handle first, main pilot chute second (think about what happens next main deploys but is already cutaway so jumper continues on in freefall).
I saw that happen to a guy who was BORROWING MY RIG ! The dumbass (the other dumbass actually, I'm the dumbass who loaned out my rig) did a lazy toss with the PC, which went right over his back and collapsed in his burble. So then the genius pulled the 3 ring, the main deployed and immediately cutaway. He then told me he couldn't find the reserve handle. This was 1979, so no AAD or RSL. Just as I screamed the name of a certain Jewish carpenter at the top of my lungs in the packing area, the reserve finally came out, opening about 100ft above the marshes at the end of a lake. Had to have my rig cleaned by a rigger. Served me right. somebody got the whole thing on film too, including me running across the DZ like a jackrabbit towards the lake.

NEVER LEND YOUR GEAR TO ANYONE, watching somebody go stupid on your gear is the sickest feeling in the world.


amir1967  (B License)

Jun 20, 2003, 12:59 PM
Post #13 of 51 (6087 views)
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Re: [alain] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

just had my second reserve last sunday, spinning mal
I can spiraling with my canopy level towards the ground but sunday for the first time I was on my back so I looked at my alt 4000 ft and bye-bye vengeance Hello reserve , the rsl beat me to the pin so I had 2 or 3 twist on the reserve but it flew level , so I think that for me the rsl as to go . on the other hand within 3 or 4 second Ive lost about 800 ft and my wingload on the main is about 1.35 ,I think that Ive learned a good lesson.
I dont want to think what feel w.l. off 1.6 ,1.8 or higher if you open at 2000ft or so


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 22, 2003, 8:18 AM
Post #14 of 51 (6008 views)
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Re: [amir1967] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just had my second reserve last sunday, spinning mal
I can spiraling with my canopy level towards the ground but sunday for the first time I was on my back so I looked at my alt 4000 ft and bye-bye vengeance Hello reserve , the rsl beat me to the pin so I had 2 or 3 twist on the reserve but it flew level , so I think that for me the rsl as to go . on the other hand within 3 or 4 second Ive lost about 800 ft and my wingload on the main is about 1.35 ,I think that Ive learned a good lesson.
I dont want to think what feel w.l. off 1.6 ,1.8 or higher if you open at 2000ft or so

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If line twists on your reserve upset you, then your reserve is too small.
RSL or no RSL should not be part of your thought process.


amir1967  (B License)

Jun 22, 2003, 11:33 AM
Post #15 of 51 (5992 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

``If line twists on your reserve upset you, then your reserve is too small.
RSL or no RSL should not be part of your thought process.``


No they dont upset me just wanted to share that for me the rsl has to go when I get my rig back from a repack .
and maybe someone els jumping elliptical will disconnet theirs


taz9420  (D 26425)

Jun 25, 2003, 8:45 PM
Post #16 of 51 (5856 views)
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Re: [alain] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

A little unwritten rule at my home DZ: When you get to the ground (overcome with excitement), before any one sees, pull your reserve handle, either that or prepare for an ass chewing.


(This post was edited by taz9420 on Jun 25, 2003, 11:12 PM)


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Jun 26, 2003, 6:57 AM
Post #17 of 51 (5816 views)
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Re: [dterrick] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tottally with you on that one dterrick. My right arm came completely out of socket in freefall and I knew it was going to be useless within 1 second of looking back it it noodling in the wind. Went straight for the silver.

Honestly, I'll bet there are alot of people with the attitude that going silver is like the worst thing that could happen, i.e. I'll have to pay for repack, I'll lose my freebag, I'll get rediculed. Granted, they may not think they think this, but look at how many people lately are trying to deal with spinning up mains when really they should just chop it.

I'm all about the silver should the need ever arise again.

Be safe out there friends.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Jun 27, 2003, 5:23 AM
Post #18 of 51 (5765 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote-----------------------------------------------------If you worry about an unstable opening causing your reserve to malfunction, you are wearing the wrong size of reserve! __________________________________________________

How would a different size reserve have less chance of malfunctioning from an unstable deployment?

t


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 27, 2003, 10:36 AM
Post #19 of 51 (5738 views)
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Re: [Tonto] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

>How would a different size reserve have less chance of
>malfunctioning from an unstable deployment?

A heavily loaded reserve might spin up after line twists and be unrecoverable.


geronimo

Jun 27, 2003, 4:01 PM
Post #20 of 51 (5687 views)
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Re: [billvon] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
> i'm wondering which kind of jumpers did not go for the silver after a cutaway:

From the skydiving fatalities site:

- a jumper with borrowed gear, no RSL or AAD; 100 jumps

- a jumper who did go for silver but waited too long after the cutaway; 160 jumps. Had an AAD but it fired too low.

- a jumper in Oklahoma cut away at around 400 feet and did not pull the reserve. No info on jump #'s.

- a jumper cut away after an RW jump and never opened the reserve. 550 jumps. No AAD/RSL.

- A skysurfer cut away at around 3000 feet, no reserve pull. He had 500+ jumps.

- a student on her first jump was told to cut away as a result of a mal. She did not open her reserve. No AAD/RSL.

[sarcasm]

Hey are these from just one year & only from the US?

If so, why don't you start up a mandated RSL and or AAD thread??
That's six fatalities per year that would be saved by these life saving devices - about the same as your 'save' projection for the Max WL BSR.

Proper execution of emergency procedures would have (most likely) prevented these fatalities.

But wait - that is jumper education, knowledge and experience coming into play.

I know - force an equipment requirement and then say 'An RSL or AAD may have prevented these fatalities.'

It's all so clear to me now!

[/sarcasm]


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 27, 2003, 4:09 PM
Post #21 of 51 (5687 views)
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Re: [geronimo] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

>If so, why don't you start up a mandated RSL and or AAD thread??

Because fatalities in those categories are low, <2 or 3 a year each.

>But wait - that is jumper education, knowledge and experience
>coming into play.

Exactly. Students are trained extensively on how to pull when they're low and how to cut away if they have to. In fact, that training is (here's that nasty word again) mandatory. Thus there are fewer skydivers dying than otherwise would. If you made cutaway training optional during the FJC, then a lot more people would die under malfunctions.

You don't advocate voluntary cutaway training during the FJC, do you?


CloudOnMyTongue  (B 5475)

Jun 28, 2003, 7:45 AM
Post #22 of 51 (5657 views)
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Re: [billvon] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon LOLSmile
sometimes people need the obvious pointed out.


rgoper  (C 32349)

Jun 28, 2003, 11:42 AM
Post #23 of 51 (5639 views)
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Re: [billvon] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You don't advocate voluntary cutaway training during the FJC, do you?

not in the FJC, but at some point and time during the utilized training program...yes. mandatory? no, optional...yes. i had to wait until jump #474 to find out what it was like, and it messed with me every jump just about, (is this my mal jump?) until it actually happened.


Newbie  (C License)

Jun 30, 2003, 2:17 AM
Post #24 of 51 (5588 views)
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Re: [taz9420] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A little unwritten rule at my home DZ: When you get to the ground (overcome with excitement), before any one sees, pull your reserve handle, either that or prepare for an ass chewing.

I'm not having a go, but my honest opinion is "why?". I think this is pointless - why let pride get in the way of your own survival? If that were me and the CYPRES had done the job i was meant to have done, i would take an ass chewing anyday and spend another day/week/month/year on the ground learning nothing but emergency procedures to drill them into my head, rather than fooling everyone - myself included - into thinking i had done the right thing in the air, when i hadn't.
Just my personal opinion on this.


andy2

Jun 30, 2003, 6:51 AM
Post #25 of 51 (5555 views)
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Re: [Newbie] no reserve pull after cutaway ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he is right. Be true to yourself and others and you will receive the information/training you need. Lying just hurts yourself!


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