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SL vs. IAD

 

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AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 1, 2003, 9:20 PM
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SL vs. IAD Can't Post

Alrighty, after a cool discussion with a guy I know who is a SL instructor about the benifits of the two methods (he's a die hard SL guy, not wanting to do IAD), I decided to post the question here:

Between the SL and IAD methods (not SL vs. AFF or ISP or AFP,etc), what do you consider to be the Pros and Cons of each method in relation to the other method?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 1, 2003, 9:38 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been a S/L instructor since 1982 and an IAD instructor since 1984.
Back in 1982 we were still using military surplus static-lines. It was always a challenge to prevent students from wrapping S/L around their ankles, arms, necks, etc. and after the students were gone, you had to sort out the snakes' nest of static-lines they left in the airplane.In the evenings mechanics at S/L DZs get to repair S/L anchors, hammer dents out of the airframe and repaint it while the riggers and repairing containers and instructors are drinking beer.

Even with 1990s vintage piggyback rigs, S/L are still a nuisance.

Since converting to IAD in 1984, I have never looked back. IAD is far easier to manufacture, repair, pack, gear check, prepare for exit, climb out on strut with student and there is no mess remaining in the airplane.
Finally the combination of hanging exit and IAD opens so quickly that few students can backloop bad enough to interferr with opening.


(This post was edited by riggerrob on Jun 1, 2003, 9:40 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 1, 2003, 9:40 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Alrighty, next quesiton. What about malfunctions, specifically an aircraft malfunction at 2000ft, that the pilot wants everyone out.

Lets use a 182 as an example. Now, if your policy is to hook the first SL student up before take off, do you send him/her out on the SL or try to disconnect and send out on reserve. If you send him/her out on the SL, what about the other 2 that aren't hooked up?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 1, 2003, 9:44 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

If the engine quits at 2,000', the less time you spend fumbling with gear the better.
Toss the first student out on S/L.
Tell the rest of the students to get out and pull their reserves.
And remember that the instructor's primary duty is to be the last man out alive.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 1, 2003, 9:47 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Would it bother you that you're sending a student out on their last chance? Instead of their main?


(If that sounds sarcastic, I'm sorry, its not meant to be, I'm honestly curious and trying to pick your brainSmile).


BPO  (D 87411)

Jun 2, 2003, 12:13 AM
Post #6 of 28 (1534 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you send him/her out on the SL, what about the other 2 that aren't hooked up?

At our DZ, all SL students are hooked up while entering the plane, makes more sense I think. What's the reason to hook up only one student?


mccordia  (D 94775)

Jun 2, 2003, 5:59 AM
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Re: [BPO] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Same at our DZ.
Also..sending a S/L student out 'unhooked' and telling them to pull their reserve might nog be a bright idea with a (more the likely) unstable exit/pull while there is a couple of feet of staticline trailing them, even if they'd do a full emergency procedure (the risers will reslease, but the pin/sl will still be keeping the container closed)

A trailing staticline on an instable student who's never done freefall before sure looks like a doom-scenario to me...the changes of the SL entangeling with the student and/or main are so big (at least...that's how it seems to me?)


(This post was edited by mccordia on Jun 2, 2003, 6:00 AM)


Faber

Jun 2, 2003, 6:11 AM
Post #8 of 28 (1498 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And remember that the instructor's primary duty is to be the last man out alive.
no thats the pilots jobWinkhe he

Quote:
Would it bother you that you're sending a student out on their last chance? Instead of their main?
Quote:
I think its about personal limits here.If the student just have got rid of the sl then i think he/she will be better off whith the reserve,also the fact that the plane sure will lose some alti,there migth aint any time to deside if it should be the main or the reseve(talking students here).Then it migth be a better rule that all go for the reserve instead of explaining each person what to do.
Jumpers that are confident about pulling main from that alti,should ofcours do that,but thouse normaly dont need to be told what to doWink


(This post was edited by Faber on Jun 2, 2003, 6:11 AM)


iowa  (D 16855)

Jun 2, 2003, 6:13 AM
Post #9 of 28 (1493 views)
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Re: [BPO] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't hook up the first S/L until at least 1500'. In the event of fire or a wing falling off we need to be able to get out fast. Below that is reserve time.

I have no problem sending anyone (including me) out on thier last chance. That's what it's there for and it's better than landing in a malfunctioning airplane.

I like the idea of not having to switch pcs/sl back and forth on IAD and not having the bag and/or the sl banging on the plane.

I havn't done IAD but I can't think of any cons that wouldn't trade off with SL cons.

Hookit (I think) said something about "a competent and confident JM out on the step" being the important part of doing IAD well.


Faber

Jun 2, 2003, 7:16 AM
Post #10 of 28 (1479 views)
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Re: [iowa] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

i can see your point,how ever we hook up students as they enter the plane,but that will force them to use the main(hmm think im gonna ask the local instructors about that one..)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jun 2, 2003, 7:35 AM
Post #11 of 28 (1471 views)
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Re: [iowa] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hookit (I think) said something about "a competent and confident JM out on the step" being the important part of doing IAD well.

Actually, I said that. If not here, then in the last thread we had on this topic. That, of course, applies to all forms of instruction. I have seen quite a few timid SL jumpmasters and I's in my lifetime. Not only not willing, but quite scared to get out on the step with SL students. I have always done that; it makes it easier to "shortline" SL students who are about to flip through their risers.

As to the discussion about who to hook up and when, here is how I, and both of the dropzones I have worked at do it as our SOP:

First man is hooked up at either 1000 or 1500 feet and will exit on his main at that altitude or higher in even of an emergency before jumprun. Second and third students exit on reserves if they are not already transitioned to the "student" position and hooked up for their jumprun. I have worked on SL programs where two types of deployment systems are used. My dad's place uses SL assist mated to standard spring-loaded pilot chute freefall systems. The military club I worked at has the D-bag hooked securely to the SL and it stays with the plane after doing it's job. I like the security of the D-bag system, but even with removing all metal grommets from the bags, their sheer mass still beats planes up more that SL assist. All that is out the window with IAD.

Chuck


BenGriffiths  (B 103613)

Jun 2, 2003, 1:57 PM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not an instructor in any way shape or form.

I would have though hooking up all SL students would be safer than on the climb up. For several reasons:
a)-An emergancy requiring immediate exit would be safer and quciker
b)-Forgetting to hook up a student or misrouting SL's is harder.
c)-If the student falls out - then they will have an open canopy


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 2, 2003, 2:24 PM
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Re: [BenGriffiths] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Back in the olden days, when men were men and women could be hairy Cool we always used to hook up the first on the ground, and the others as you went along. Why? Well, because they told me to. But I think it was to avoid tangles.

If a student jumps out on the way up, the airplane was his main, and the reserve is a reserve. The first one just gets the added advantage of having his main pulled. As far as running away, well, his main will trail after him. BFD. If he's not running fast enough to undo the static line assist or D-bag, well, then cut away, which, yes, will pull the reserve. Again, BFD -- it's a life-saving maneuver, and the reserve is just stuff.

Of course, it never happened. So I spent more time on PLF's.

Wendy W.


livendive  (D 21415)

Jun 2, 2003, 2:30 PM
Post #14 of 28 (1422 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alrighty, next quesiton. What about malfunctions, specifically an aircraft malfunction at 2000ft, that the pilot wants everyone out.

Lets use a 182 as an example. Now, if your policy is to hook the first SL student up before take off, do you send him/her out on the SL or try to disconnect and send out on reserve. If you send him/her out on the SL, what about the other 2 that aren't hooked up?

First question: As a S/L & IAD-I, I can't think of any IAD cons not shared by S/L, so I guess IAD enjoys a slight advantage in my mind.

Second question: I cover this in FJC and occasionally throughout the rest of my student's S/L jumps. In the event of an aircraft emergency that requires an early exit, the first S/L student goes out on his main (hooked up when entering the plane), followed by me, and then the others who are to exit and immediately dump their reserve. The thing about a S/L trailing behind them isn't a concern, as we stow the S/L's in rubber bands on the top flap of the main tray. I don't take them out of those stows until I'm hooking them up. IAD students are different in that unless we're approaching jump run, their PC is still in it's pocket. I tell them that they will be leaving and deploying their reserve except in the unlikely instance that I already have their PC in my hand.

Note: We put our student's out of a 206 w/ cargo door, but I can't see that I'd do things any different in a 182. The JM leaves after the first student simply to clear the door and facilitate everyone else getting out. It seems like this would actually be even more important in a 182.

Blues,
Dave


mikeat10500  (B 3715)

Jun 2, 2003, 4:00 PM
Post #15 of 28 (1406 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alrighty, next quesiton. What about malfunctions, specifically an aircraft malfunction at 2000ft, that the pilot wants everyone out.

Lets use a 182 as an example.

Ok..I JM IAD style from a vintage 182(no letters).
I have JM'd with and without a door and nobody ever falls out ever,ever,ever unless I say so. I sit in "student #1 position" back against the controls facing the students and can make good eye contact with the pilot.

If we loose power at any altitude on a student load
we will all (more than likely) land with the plane!

In the event of a control surface failure of like
the pilot says" you all have to go quickly" we dispatch on main if alt and rate of descent permit.

In the event of catastrophic failure...I scream this is an emergency use your reserve...
open the door(provided the pilot has not already exited) put my fingers
in the holes on the top of jumper #1 Protech like a bowling ball( yes thats what they are for)...and try to pull him/her
out the door with me...he/she is on the AAD program!
The other 2 will likely die in the A/C.

A couple of years ago some friends of mine(instructors not students) were in
a 182/172 starting jumprun at 9500' when the A/C stalled(wingstall) and went flat spin!. They all got out, but the last one was out about 2000'(the A/C had started to recover then anyway). He smashed his helmet against the aircraft so hard on exit it broke the jaw part off. They all said it was very difficult exit to perform!

So a true aircraft emergency at 2000' is very bad news and you may not be able to save all on board.

Instructor rule #163..."It is better to be tried by twelve
than carried by six.

...mikeCool


(This post was edited by mikeat10500 on Jun 2, 2003, 7:17 PM)


Kris  (D 26033)

Jun 2, 2003, 4:59 PM
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Re: [mikeat10500] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

The procedure I follow is similiar. I have three exits I can use with my IAD students:

1. The normal IAD deployment with them hanging from the strut with me right next to them. Yes, I do climb out with my students.

2. Quick exit, used if for some reason we all have to bail on one pass, altitude permitting (generally above 2500'). With this exit, I will have student # 1 go to "feet out & stop", I will grab their PC, and have them leave facing the tail. I will pitch the PC underneath the plane as they leave. I will then rotate around with my back to the console and have the other students do the same exit. This gives them plenty of room and give me easy access to their PC's. If we're off field, they are to try and find my canopy and follow my landing pattern.

3. Emergency exit. I will tell student # 1 to exit on their reserve. The student is to go to "feet out & stop", put both hands on silver with thumbs through, leave, and pull when both their feet have left the step. At that point I will leave the airplane to make room for the students behind me to get out. This is generally only workable above 1500' and with no serious control surface damage.

Of course, I take all of my queues from the pilot as he is the one in command of the airplane. However, if I look over at the pilot and his eyes are glazed in fear and has become unresponsive, well, then I will have to make a decision at that point.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 2, 2003, 7:50 PM
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Re: [mikeat10500] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If we loose power at any altitude on a student load
we will all (more than likely) land with the plane!

Wasn't there an incident where a 182 lost power at 6000ft, the pilot told everyone to stay and they all died on landing?

I was just in a plane crash a bit over a week ago, it was an engine out at 300ft, and that was rough...however, if we'd been above 3k (maybe even lower), I expect the pilot to have told us to leave quickly, since that would lighten the plane and give him a better glide ratio as well as an easier plane to land. Then again, it would have drastically increased the drag on the plane, having the door open and jumpers leave.


sducoach  (D License)

Jun 2, 2003, 8:29 PM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileAggie,

There are two primary advantages in IAD over S/L. One is equipment. It is less expensive for a DZ to utilize "sport" student equipment than maintain two sets of gear.
The second is equipment, safety procedures. The "student" equipment is the same as the "sport" equipment that will be used later. Emergency procedures are the same and, DZ's can sell their older student equipment to new skydivers.

As far as pilot chute assist or direct bag, again it boils down to equipment and maintenance.

Blues,

J.E.


sducoach  (D License)

Jun 2, 2003, 8:31 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

SmileAggie,

It was a C206 in Grain Valley MO. Lost five friends on that one.


mikeat10500  (B 3715)

Jun 2, 2003, 9:52 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Power loss on take off = land with plane( crash ).
Power loss above 1000' feet we can land home
on the run way 99% sure full load on.
Dead stick landings are done all the time (safely).

P.S.
Thats why the key is tied to the aircraft with a pull-up cord.
...mikeSmile


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 2, 2003, 10:24 PM
Post #21 of 28 (1369 views)
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Re: [mikeat10500] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Dead stick landings are done all the time (safely).

Yes, but are they done with 4+ people in the cabin, being close to the weight/CG limits of the aircraft, with no seats to help take the inpact of a possibly hard landing?

I'm talking from experience, 182 crashes fucking suck.


Faber

Jun 3, 2003, 2:24 AM
Post #22 of 28 (1353 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

i were in a c 182 which lost power in aprox 3000ft,the pilot asked us to stay and sit still.as he has the comand in that case we stayed there.No reason to have 5 canopies in the air while he has no power.we glided down,landed safe.. Be sure to do the rigth thing in corporation whith the pilot.its his job to fly,if he ask you to jump then jump,but if he says all stays here then do that


Faber

Jun 3, 2003, 2:27 AM
Post #23 of 28 (1352 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
182 crashes fucking suck
tell me which crashes dontWink


mikeat10500  (B 3715)

Jun 3, 2003, 5:51 AM
Post #24 of 28 (1343 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Dead stick landings are done all the time (safely).

Yes, but are they done with 4+ people in the cabin, being close to the weight/CG limits of the aircraft, with no seats to help take the inpact of a possibly hard landing?

I'm talking from experience, 182 crashes fucking suck.

Yep...full load=5 people (including pilot),5 rigs, and full fuel. He can land that that aircraft the same way you land you main(loaded)Wink. But you gotta be cool dude! And just for fudge factor we upsized...wing tip extensions. If it's a hard landing someone will get hurt. Small ,single engine aircraft are dangerous animals.
...mikeSmile


mikeat10500  (B 3715)

Jun 3, 2003, 6:09 AM
Post #25 of 28 (1338 views)
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Re: [Faber] SL vs. IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i were in a c 182 which lost power in aprox 3000ft,the pilot asked us to stay and sit still.as he has the comand in that case we stayed there.No reason to have 5 canopies in the air while he has no power.we glided down,landed safe.. Be sure to do the rigth thing in corporation whith the pilot.its his job to fly,if he ask you to jump then jump,but if he says all stays here then do that

Power loss at low altitude is bad enough...stalling the aircraft at that point is death! The fastest way to
stall the aircraft is to move C of G around wile the
pilot is trying to get his ducks in a row. Best bet would be a cool pilot and a secure load.

P.S. Faber...love the hair dude!Wink


(This post was edited by mikeat10500 on Jun 3, 2003, 6:10 AM)


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