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Katana's dont kill people...

 

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LeeroyJenkins  (D License)

May 18, 2018, 2:01 PM
Post #26 of 46 (3085 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

As an outside observer (I like dresses) I feel like there isn't a "learn to swoop canopy" and a lot of these discussions would be avoided if there was. Unless people are supposed to go from a Saber 2 straight to a Velo but that seems like a big jump.


(This post was edited by LeeroyJenkins on May 18, 2018, 4:13 PM)


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

May 18, 2018, 9:37 PM
Post #27 of 46 (2970 views)
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Re: [Jordan82] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

Jordan82 wrote:
Let me elaborate on "it found me"...
Sorry, I should have left that out of the post.
The Katana 107 was the only wing in my range at the dropzone when I was downsizing from the Crossfire 119. I flew it 5 times, I liked it, then I bought it.
Thanks for your concerns with MY safety.
The purpose of this post, however, is that I want to know why people think Katana's are unsafe.

Dont give two shits about anything said except MY safety everything you say is now suspect. Id have serious question about you being a TI or any type of instructor if you meant and truly believed its only about YOUR safety. Unless you jump on your own property out of your own plane with no one to ever watch or give two shits about your life or hell even picking up your bags of bones afterwards then no,mits not about YOUR safety. I get why you said it and I hope you didnt mean it. This sport is not singular and deaths an serious injury are never just my injury or death everyone suffers and he an forbid you take someone else with you. Again I hope you, especially as a TI, know that an it was just a fuck off line to the poster speaking down to you, and I hope you get that I am speaking to you not down or up just to you.


(This post was edited by catfishhunter on May 18, 2018, 9:38 PM)


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

May 20, 2018, 1:55 AM
Post #28 of 46 (2817 views)
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Re: [LeeroyJenkins] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

LeeroyJenkins wrote:
I feel like there isn't a "learn to swoop canopy"

The Sabre2 is a very common recommendation for that job.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

May 20, 2018, 8:08 AM
Post #29 of 46 (2755 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

I had the exact opposite experience. The velo was out of control for me, I never felt safe flying it. Mind you my wing loading was closer to 2.6:1 since the largest model is a 120. Katana has much friendlier options for sizes

I like the Katana, I fly it well (IMO of course), it is no better or no worse than any other canopy because there are too many variables to make a "one is better than the other" assessment. wing loading, experience, goals, how you fly it, aggressiveness, or just getting to the ground etc

I hate discussions like these because almost all of it is subjective opinions. And no two jumpers or jumps can replicate the exact same set of flight circumstances or outcomes because every canopy flight is different.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 21, 2018, 8:08 AM
Post #30 of 46 (2619 views)
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Re: [LeeroyJenkins] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

LeeroyJenkins wrote:
As an outside observer (I like dresses) I feel like there isn't a "learn to swoop canopy" and a lot of these discussions would be avoided if there was. Unless people are supposed to go from a Saber 2 straight to a Velo but that seems like a big jump.

Stiletto


LeeroyJenkins  (D License)

May 21, 2018, 9:49 AM
Post #31 of 46 (2551 views)
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Re: [Joellercoaster] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

Joellercoaster wrote:
LeeroyJenkins wrote:
I feel like there isn't a "learn to swoop canopy"

The Sabre2 is a very common recommendation for that job.

So people are expected to go from a Saber2 to a crossbrace?


Alexg3265  (D License)

May 22, 2018, 12:18 PM
Post #32 of 46 (2315 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

tkhayes wrote:
I had the exact opposite experience. The velo was out of control for me, I never felt safe flying it. Mind you my wing loading was closer to 2.6:1 since the largest model is a 120. Katana has much friendlier options for sizes

I like the Katana, I fly it well (IMO of course), it is no better or no worse than any other canopy because there are too many variables to make a "one is better than the other" assessment. wing loading, experience, goals, how you fly it, aggressiveness, or just getting to the ground etc

I hate discussions like these because almost all of it is subjective opinions. And no two jumpers or jumps can replicate the exact same set of flight circumstances or outcomes because every canopy flight is different.

Try a gangster Wink


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 22, 2018, 7:35 PM
Post #33 of 46 (2220 views)
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Re: [LeeroyJenkins] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

LeeroyJenkins wrote:
Joellercoaster wrote:
LeeroyJenkins wrote:
I feel like there isn't a "learn to swoop canopy"

The Sabre2 is a very common recommendation for that job.

So people are expected to go from a Saber2 to a crossbrace?

As I mentioned, Stiletto.


LeeroyJenkins  (D License)

May 22, 2018, 8:42 PM
Post #34 of 46 (2200 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel like that makes much more sense. Though the Stiletto has a short recovery arch. At least thats what I hear is bad about it compared to cross brace canopies.


Pobrause

May 22, 2018, 9:30 PM
Post #35 of 46 (2186 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
LeeroyJenkins wrote:
Joellercoaster wrote:
LeeroyJenkins wrote:
I feel like there isn't a "learn to swoop canopy"

The Sabre2 is a very common recommendation for that job.

So people are expected to go from a Saber2 to a crossbrace?

As I mentioned, Stiletto.


First I thought you were trolling but you seem to be serious about your Stiletto swoops... other than extremely low hooks and toggle monkeying combined with an instant recovery, what exactly do you think makes a stiletto a reasonable canopy choice for a pilot trying to get into HP- landings?


Deimian

May 23, 2018, 12:18 AM
Post #36 of 46 (2153 views)
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Re: [Alexg3265] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

Alexg3265 wrote:

Try a gangster Wink

You guys need to set up a demo program in Europe. I'd happily try one this summer if you did Wink. The lack of demo program in Europe is also the reason why I am flying an X-Fire now instead of a Tesla. I could try the X-Fire before buying, but I couldn't try the Tesla.

BTW: How does the Gangster compare to the Tesla for swooping? How do their recovery arcs compare?


EvilGenius  (D License)

May 23, 2018, 12:32 AM
Post #37 of 46 (2146 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been told the recover arc is longer on a Gangster than on a Tesla....I'll let you have a go when my one arrives! Tongue

p.s. I'm liking my Katana but it's for sure not a relaxing canopy and as has already been mentioned I don't get the feeling there would be much 'dig' to get you out of the corner.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 24, 2018, 10:56 AM
Post #38 of 46 (1870 views)
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Re: [Pobrause] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

Pobrause wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
LeeroyJenkins wrote:
Joellercoaster wrote:
LeeroyJenkins wrote:
I feel like there isn't a "learn to swoop canopy"

The Sabre2 is a very common recommendation for that job.

So people are expected to go from a Saber2 to a crossbrace?

As I mentioned, Stiletto.


First I thought you were trolling but you seem to be serious about your Stiletto swoops... other than extremely low hooks and toggle monkeying combined with an instant recovery, what exactly do you think makes a stiletto a reasonable canopy choice for a pilot trying to get into HP- landings?

Your youth is showing.

As the first zero-P elliptical introduced in 1992, the Stiletto was the first serious swoop canopy and the canopy of choice for HP flight until the Velo came out in 1998. When the Velo took over that title, the long recovery was considered a liability rather than an asset by most.

I have spent the past 25 years flying both Stilettos and Velos (from 1.3:1 to 2.4:1) and each has its advantages, but to say a Stiletto isn't a good swoop canopy is short-sighted and to say it's not a good transition canopy to HP flight is flat wrong.

The recovery is not "instant", it is short. There's a big difference. My current Stiletto is a 135 loaded at 1.5:1. We are restricted to 90's in our beer line landing area and I perform a "front riser to front riser 90" starting at 350 feet. That's low compared to a Velo, but it's not low. Also, my home DZ is just above sea level, so my turn is even higher at higher elevations. My 270 turn begins at about 500 feet, also not low and leaves plenty of time to get out if needed. It's simply about what you are used to and what you train for.

The reason I say the Stiletto is a good transition canopy is actually because it has a short recovery. It's much easier to bail out of a botched turn precicely because it will flatten out quickly, and that is a huge asset to young HP pilots who make mistakes. It also has elliptical flight characteristics so young pilots can move from square to elliptical without having to make a big leap.


kpitchford  (D License)

May 24, 2018, 5:15 PM
Post #39 of 46 (1748 views)
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Re: [Jordan82] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll give you the short answer. False.


Deimian

May 25, 2018, 1:52 AM
Post #40 of 46 (1635 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
The reason I say the Stiletto is a good transition canopy is actually because it has a short recovery. It's much easier to bail out of a botched turn precicely because it will flatten out quickly, and that is a huge asset to young HP pilots who make mistakes. It also has elliptical flight characteristics so young pilots can move from square to elliptical without having to make a big leap.

I'd argue the opposite. As you transition to more HP canopies, you need to slowly develop your skills and perception. A Stiletto will get you into the bad habit of making a lowish turn, because you need it to swoop. Then you transition to a Velo, make a lowish turn because your perception and experience tells you that it is ok, and you are screwed. The Stiletto was probably the best canopy to transition to cross-braced canopies in 1998. That's 20 years ago. We have better options today.

Just my 2 cents.


LeeroyJenkins  (D License)

May 25, 2018, 8:20 AM
Post #41 of 46 (1530 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

Deimian wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
The reason I say the Stiletto is a good transition canopy is actually because it has a short recovery. It's much easier to bail out of a botched turn precicely because it will flatten out quickly, and that is a huge asset to young HP pilots who make mistakes. It also has elliptical flight characteristics so young pilots can move from square to elliptical without having to make a big leap.

I'd argue the opposite. As you transition to more HP canopies, you need to slowly develop your skills and perception. A Stiletto will get you into the bad habit of making a lowish turn, because you need it to swoop. Then you transition to a Velo, make a lowish turn because your perception and experience tells you that it is ok, and you are screwed. The Stiletto was probably the best canopy to transition to cross-braced canopies in 1998. That's 20 years ago. We have better options today.

Just my 2 cents.

what is that option?


gowlerk  (C 3196)

May 26, 2018, 2:35 PM
Post #42 of 46 (1367 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

Chuck, you are probably the only person I've seen recommending a Stiletto for a swoop learning canopy in many years. I love my Stiletto. It's an old guy canopy and I'm an old guy.

Apparently you have a son who teaches canopy piloting professionally. Would he agree with you?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 26, 2018, 5:27 PM
Post #43 of 46 (1323 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

gowlerk wrote:
Chuck, you are probably the only person I've seen recommending a Stiletto for a swoop learning canopy in many years. I love my Stiletto. It's an old guy canopy and I'm an old guy.

Apparently you have a son who teaches canopy piloting professionally. Would he agree with you?


I admit that my suggestion is old school, but I also think that some dismiss it because it isn't the latest greatest (probably the same people that call a Stiletto a "Spinetto", which it not). I wasn't suggesting that anyone step from a Stiletto straight to a Velo, Valkyrie, etc.. That's what I did because there wasn't anything in between back then.

What I was advocating was using a Stiletto as the FIRST step in transitioning from squares to HP canopies. My "old school" strategy has always been that changes in canopy performance should be made in the smallest steps possible and the stiletto allows for that. It let's a jumper move from a square to an elliptical with minimal change in recovery arc and other characteristics.

Am I way behind in what is considered acceptable progression. Almost certainly, but we've all seen the results of making big leaps in canopy choices. The "small step" strategy may not be cool, but it works.

On a side note, I'd like to hear opinions on canopy progression choices. Let's say someone decides they want to be an HP pilot. What would others say would be the best choices to go from a moderately loaded square to a heavily loaded ellitical?

As for my kid, who knows. He's a Flight 1 coach, PD Factory Team member, and world-class competitor. My guess is he would have some opinions on the question I posed above. I'll make a point to ask him and post his reply.


Deimian

May 28, 2018, 12:57 AM
Post #44 of 46 (1202 views)
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Re: [LeeroyJenkins] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

LeeroyJenkins wrote:
Deimian wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
The reason I say the Stiletto is a good transition canopy is actually because it has a short recovery. It's much easier to bail out of a botched turn precicely because it will flatten out quickly, and that is a huge asset to young HP pilots who make mistakes. It also has elliptical flight characteristics so young pilots can move from square to elliptical without having to make a big leap.

I'd argue the opposite. As you transition to more HP canopies, you need to slowly develop your skills and perception. A Stiletto will get you into the bad habit of making a lowish turn, because you need it to swoop. Then you transition to a Velo, make a lowish turn because your perception and experience tells you that it is ok, and you are screwed. The Stiletto was probably the best canopy to transition to cross-braced canopies in 1998. That's 20 years ago. We have better options today.

Just my 2 cents.

what is that option?

Sabre 2, Crossfire 2, Crossfire 3, X-Fire, Tesla, Katana (but demands more from the pilot than any of the others IMO), Zulu, Odyssey..... In my opinion any of these canopies are better suited than a Stiletto, to get into crossbraced canopies with longer recovery arcs. I am not saying that the Stiletto is a bad canopy though.


Alexg3265  (D License)

May 29, 2018, 10:10 AM
Post #45 of 46 (917 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

We're working on it and have been sending some demos over with sponsored athletes to some locations in europe... Up till now its been the shipping and customs keeping us from expanding into europe as far as demos go....

Expect to see some in the nearish future...


Deimian wrote:
Alexg3265 wrote:

Try a gangster Wink

You guys need to set up a demo program in Europe. I'd happily try one this summer if you did Wink. The lack of demo program in Europe is also the reason why I am flying an X-Fire now instead of a Tesla. I could try the X-Fire before buying, but I couldn't try the Tesla.

BTW: How does the Gangster compare to the Tesla for swooping? How do their recovery arcs compare?


tkhayes  (D 18764)

May 29, 2018, 10:17 AM
Post #46 of 46 (913 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Katana's dont kill people... [In reply to] Can't Post

You used to have to sign a waiver and get permission from PD to fly a Stiletto. Now it is considered to be an intermediate canopy that has stood the test of time. I never liked them myself, but you cannot disagree with the success. It is a good canopy to learn a lot of pilot skills on.


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